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[Music]

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there's a whole fleet of look on the sa

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oh my gosh they're all going against the

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it was basically a cube with inside of

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sphere where the points of the cube

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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so this isn't anything that just is

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limited to the united states it's a

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hi everyone and welcome back to that ufo

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podcast my name is andy and i'm

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delighted to finally welcome to the

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podcast a professor of religious studies

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at the university of north carolina

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author of several books including the

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ever popular american cosmic and soon to

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be follow-up well i was going to say

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contact 21 but that might not be the

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case anymore but we'll get to that and i

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always like to mention when i know uh

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also a mother and parent so i appreciate

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that coming from that background myself

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at diana walsh priscilla diana welcome

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to the podcast thanks so much i'm happy

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to be here

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yeah listen when i finally managed to

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get hold of you and you were going to do

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some interviews um the gods just were

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against us for for a couple of weeks

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because of it and and all kinds of

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things and this was one that people kept

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asking me in the dms or an email or or

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on the discord server so when's diana

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coming on when's diana coming on and

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we're finally here so when you're

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listening to this it's going to be

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pretty much be early march so finally

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diana got you on the podcast we've got a

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lot to get through

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and i'm excited to do so now first off

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diana i know you're interested in ufos

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it really began in 2012 round about then

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before that growing up what was your

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exposure to the subject of ufos

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particularly as someone with quite a

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religious background and upbringing

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yeah well okay um i grew up in

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california so when you say religious

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it's true my mother's jewish and my

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father is catholic

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and i grew up in an extended kind of

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like i would call it like an irish

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catholic

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and so but california is an eclectic

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place and there's a lot of if so where i

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grew up there was it's in northern

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california there was a lot of new ageism

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around so a lot of catholics and jewish

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people actually with with their religion

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was informed by new age beliefs and

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things like that and as a kid i actually

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rebelled against that i didn't i wasn't

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really you know i saw the new age belief

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systems as being kind of capitalistic

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frankly and um and i was going to a

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school where

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sisters and nuns were going to central

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america to actually help people and

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dying in the process too so you know i

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had this kind of view into different

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sorts of religions new religious

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movements as well as traditional

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religion um catholicism especially with

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respect to the people on the ground you

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know not the hierarchy of the church but

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the actual people on the ground helping

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people and that that made a huge impact

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on me and my belief structure um in

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terms of ufos

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i never thought of ufos actually but

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it's kind of strange because in my

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family there was a ufo sighting my

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brother had a sighting of a ufo and it's

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uh it was it made the news and things

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like that and my parents saw it too but

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i never thought about it i never you

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know i never thought about it until i

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started this um research in 2020 you

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know in 2012 basically

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and so but what i was interested in was

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i was interested in

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the very mystical

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aspects of my religion and different

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religions and that and i started that

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really young so i started that around

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11. and um i would say that when i hit

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the study of ufos in 2012

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i recognized that everything that i had

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been doing my whole life was back

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basically studying contact events

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so i was studying them historically but

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i didn't have the framework for

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calling them ufos until 20 2012. call me

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late

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in the game you know kind of an idiot

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you know as a kid um but that's that's

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how it happened i got the tools of you

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know i kind of went through the tools of

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learning you know the

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uh graduate methods and stuff like that

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for studying religious studies and

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by the time i studied ufos i was

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equipped to go back historically and

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look at some what i call contact events

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you say late to the game but i think

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fresh perspective might be a good way to

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put it because like you say it gave you

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the tools and you didn't have that bias

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of i've got an interest in ufos i've

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grown up on sci-fi films i've read all

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these books so you came into it with a

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unique skill set which has obviously

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helped you in what you've done i have to

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just go back a second diana because you

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mentioned your your brother had a

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sighting and people will be kicking me

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if i don't ask you what was it you saw

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and where was it that happened

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sure so we grew up in a place called

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granite bay in northern california and

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it's a really beautiful place right at

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the base of the foothills up to the

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sierras and so it's somewhat hilly okay

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so my brother was

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maybe 11 or so and i was a little bit

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older and i remember that he

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s he he this is how he described it so

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he was up he was riding his bike you

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know and he was up on a hill and he saw

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orb in the sky and he didn't know what

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it was so he looked at it and he said as

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soon as he recognized that it was

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something that wasn't an airplane he

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said it turned around and looked at him

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and then he got afraid he was afraid and

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so he sped down the hill on his bicycle

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to come home

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and it followed him so it followed him

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down the road and it followed him to the

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driveway of my house and he threw down

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his bike and he ran inside and he yelled

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and screamed for my parents well my

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father was an attorney um he was a

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somewhat well-known attorney in in that

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area and he came out with my mother and

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they both saw it my mother's a nurse and

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she's very rational and they saw this

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thing right out there and then it just

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boom disappeared well my father went

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inside and he called the police because

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he thought that they would listen to him

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but they didn't you know but um so this

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was kind of like what happened and it

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was you know talked about for maybe a

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week in the family and then everybody

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just forgot about it and it wasn't until

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around 20 2012 2013 when i when i

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thought

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wow you know i got i have if this was

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because you know my brother

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hence became a police officer and a

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sergeant and you know that kind of thing

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so he's not a person

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who would make this up and

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later he's he would talk about it and he

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said this absolutely happened my mother

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said it absolutely happened my dad's

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passed away so i couldn't ask him about

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it um but what i did was i tried to find

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evidence of it on record because i have

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the you know

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the approximate date it happened i knew

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that if they saw it other people saw it

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too well i could i looked for it i

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couldn't find it until just recently and

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i didn't find it it was actually on

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halloween and my brother found it in a

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mountain journal

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um newspaper and he sent me the article

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and they said oh you know we're doing a

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throwback to

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back in the day you know the spooky

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stories back in the day and they

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published that and i i got it i found it

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in my inbox from my brother on halloween

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um just recently

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that's awesome and i like the fact that

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there's a police officer out there in in

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california i'm guessing he's best yeah

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if anyone does have a ufo sighting and

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they speak to him that he's not going to

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just totally throw it out the window and

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he can he can talk to them about it so

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that's pretty cool yeah yes

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diana so listen we've got a lot to get

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through and i'm going to get to the book

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and i'm going to jump all over a little

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bit because there's so much that i want

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to ask you

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with your background and religious

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studies particularly

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what parallels do you see and those who

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follow religions really closely to those

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who follow the ufo subject with the same

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sort of passion and faith

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so many have different interpretations

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of various religious texts or you know

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how they follow certain books

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and i see the same with people who talk

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about ufos and non-human intelligences

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okay good question so the parallels are

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striking and in my field um the study of

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ufos

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is something that's done so i'm not the

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only person who's done this i think i

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might be the only person who found out

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about the fight club college and you

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know that kind of thing and and you know

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published it at the time when it was

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just about to be disclosed so and i

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didn't that wasn't coordinated that was

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fully rogue

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um

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i was working completely on my own

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so what what you know similarities and

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patterns do i see well what happened was

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that i recognized that

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first when you you know there isn't a

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lot of evidence that we have for ufos we

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have testimonial evidence people who are

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like my brother who are credible

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witnesses or people who are not credible

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witnesses you have a lot of testimony

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the same thing with religion so within

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various traditions of religion a lot of

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what counts as you know

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um something that is true the evidence

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for it is usually just testimonial so

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you have testimonial evidence

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this doesn't fly in science you know

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scientists are looking for different

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types of evidence they're not looking

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for testimonial evidence so already you

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have correlations between belief in ufo

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which doesn't have a lot of evidence

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that so you have to have a lot of faith

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right in order to believe okay so now

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nowadays we have a lot more

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evidence of ufos we have them caught on

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radar and that kind of thing so we do

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have this and that's by the way

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very

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also for

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the belief structure around ufos so

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before i got caught up in the kinds of

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things that i got caught up in after

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2012

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i approached the topic like i would any

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other

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um

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religious

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event basically i approached it as this

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is a faith community i'm going to i'm

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not a believer i'm going into this

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community and i'm going to do field

276
00:10:39,030 --> 00:10:36,640
research among people who believe in

277
00:10:41,030 --> 00:10:39,040
ufos i don't have to believe in them to

278
00:10:43,030 --> 00:10:41,040
to study what the effects are and what

279
00:10:45,750 --> 00:10:43,040
the social effects are so that's the

280
00:10:49,110 --> 00:10:45,760
methodology i use going into them um

281
00:10:50,710 --> 00:10:49,120
almost immediately i found that a lot of

282
00:10:53,750 --> 00:10:50,720
the people who were

283
00:10:55,269 --> 00:10:53,760
these believers were also scientists and

284
00:10:56,710 --> 00:10:55,279
so i called these and a lot of them had

285
00:10:58,870 --> 00:10:56,720
their own experiences so i called these

286
00:11:01,670 --> 00:10:58,880
people the meta experiencers because

287
00:11:03,750 --> 00:11:01,680
they were actually studying people who

288
00:11:07,030 --> 00:11:03,760
are not scientists who are having ufo

289
00:11:08,550 --> 00:11:07,040
experiences to get data from them and so

290
00:11:10,310 --> 00:11:08,560
i thought this is so strange i'm just

291
00:11:12,949 --> 00:11:10,320
gonna this is a com you know i didn't

292
00:11:14,389 --> 00:11:12,959
expect this at all so that's so

293
00:11:16,550 --> 00:11:14,399
immediately the

294
00:11:18,790 --> 00:11:16,560
the story got weird you know the the

295
00:11:19,990 --> 00:11:18,800
research got really strange and that's

296
00:11:22,870 --> 00:11:20,000
when i

297
00:11:25,269 --> 00:11:22,880
realized that i was in a territory that

298
00:11:27,590 --> 00:11:25,279
i hadn't been in nor had a lot of my

299
00:11:29,590 --> 00:11:27,600
colleagues in religious studies i was in

300
00:11:32,230 --> 00:11:29,600
a different territory

301
00:11:33,350 --> 00:11:32,240
arthur c clarke said and i'll quote and

302
00:11:34,790 --> 00:11:33,360
i'm going to read this even though it's

303
00:11:37,110 --> 00:11:34,800
short to get it right because i'll get

304
00:11:39,590 --> 00:11:37,120
slaughtered if i don't any sufficiently

305
00:11:40,790 --> 00:11:39,600
advanced technology is indistinguishable

306
00:11:42,949 --> 00:11:40,800
from magic

307
00:11:44,790 --> 00:11:42,959
would it be fair to say that many of the

308
00:11:46,550 --> 00:11:44,800
incredible events or miracles we've

309
00:11:49,110 --> 00:11:46,560
heard about for over the centuries of

310
00:11:51,509 --> 00:11:49,120
millennia could be explained potentially

311
00:11:53,590 --> 00:11:51,519
by advanced civilizations or non-human

312
00:11:55,670 --> 00:11:53,600
intelligences getting involved with

313
00:11:57,670 --> 00:11:55,680
other species throughout time obviously

314
00:12:00,069 --> 00:11:57,680
in the bible we've got stories of people

315
00:12:02,550 --> 00:12:00,079
following moving stars in the sky the

316
00:12:04,710 --> 00:12:02,560
romans talked about burning shields in

317
00:12:06,550 --> 00:12:04,720
the sky and we've got ancient structures

318
00:12:08,389 --> 00:12:06,560
that were built with incredible

319
00:12:10,790 --> 00:12:08,399
alignment to constellations in the sky

320
00:12:13,190 --> 00:12:10,800
that would still be difficult to do now

321
00:12:15,269 --> 00:12:13,200
with our advanced technology

322
00:12:18,629 --> 00:12:15,279
do you think that's a good explanation

323
00:12:19,990 --> 00:12:18,639
for for what we read in religious texts

324
00:12:22,310 --> 00:12:20,000
okay so

325
00:12:24,629 --> 00:12:22,320
i would say that you have to be careful

326
00:12:26,790 --> 00:12:24,639
with generalizations because when you

327
00:12:29,030 --> 00:12:26,800
take the history of religions you can't

328
00:12:32,790 --> 00:12:29,040
even generalize from tradition to

329
00:12:35,590 --> 00:12:32,800
tradition okay so i would take case by

330
00:12:38,949 --> 00:12:35,600
case i would if i were to you know have

331
00:12:40,790 --> 00:12:38,959
a huge group of people who are people

332
00:12:43,269 --> 00:12:40,800
who study different religious traditions

333
00:12:45,590 --> 00:12:43,279
including you at the ufo tradition i

334
00:12:47,430 --> 00:12:45,600
would say what we need to do is we need

335
00:12:50,550 --> 00:12:47,440
to parse out these

336
00:12:53,030 --> 00:12:50,560
events that appear to be anomalous

337
00:12:55,350 --> 00:12:53,040
and we need to take them case by case

338
00:12:58,230 --> 00:12:55,360
and so with respect to some of the cases

339
00:13:00,710 --> 00:12:58,240
absolutely i think that's true so

340
00:13:03,110 --> 00:13:00,720
yeah that's one theory to it's like an

341
00:13:05,110 --> 00:13:03,120
explanatory framework for trying to

342
00:13:08,389 --> 00:13:05,120
understand something that we just don't

343
00:13:09,350 --> 00:13:08,399
at this point understand so that's one

344
00:13:11,910 --> 00:13:09,360
theory

345
00:13:13,750 --> 00:13:11,920
among many

346
00:13:15,509 --> 00:13:13,760
how plausible do you think it is because

347
00:13:17,509 --> 00:13:15,519
when when i say that even when i wrote

348
00:13:19,670 --> 00:13:17,519
that question earlier straight away in

349
00:13:21,590 --> 00:13:19,680
my head i started thinking this just

350
00:13:23,670 --> 00:13:21,600
sounds like an episode of ancient aliens

351
00:13:25,350 --> 00:13:23,680
this question because that's what you

352
00:13:27,750 --> 00:13:25,360
start to get to but i think a lot of

353
00:13:30,069 --> 00:13:27,760
what programs like ancient aliens or

354
00:13:33,509 --> 00:13:30,079
chariots of the gods by eric von daniken

355
00:13:34,870 --> 00:13:33,519
talked about had a reason and logic to

356
00:13:36,949 --> 00:13:34,880
its foundation not to say it's

357
00:13:39,670 --> 00:13:36,959
definitely true but i could see the

358
00:13:41,590 --> 00:13:39,680
sense and obviously 15 or 20 series into

359
00:13:43,430 --> 00:13:41,600
ancient aliens things have gone a little

360
00:13:46,069 --> 00:13:43,440
bit off the rails and now it's every

361
00:13:49,509 --> 00:13:46,079
single thing has got it goes back to

362
00:13:51,750 --> 00:13:49,519
ancient atlantis or something else but

363
00:13:53,829 --> 00:13:51,760
do you think we can actually study that

364
00:13:55,509 --> 00:13:53,839
now in 2022

365
00:13:57,350 --> 00:13:55,519
and go back and look at these texts

366
00:13:59,509 --> 00:13:57,360
there's talk of using artificial

367
00:14:01,509 --> 00:13:59,519
intelligence to to scan religious texts

368
00:14:03,670 --> 00:14:01,519
i think tom de long talked about this on

369
00:14:05,030 --> 00:14:03,680
several interviews as well or do you

370
00:14:07,110 --> 00:14:05,040
think it's something that just because

371
00:14:10,949 --> 00:14:07,120
of the amount of time that's passed we

372
00:14:13,829 --> 00:14:10,959
have to leave and put to bed and move on

373
00:14:17,110 --> 00:14:13,839
no i think that um and this is why we

374
00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:17,120
have archives that you know they contain

375
00:14:21,750 --> 00:14:19,680
this historical knowledge

376
00:14:24,310 --> 00:14:21,760
and all we need are people who have the

377
00:14:26,230 --> 00:14:24,320
proper languages to go back and look and

378
00:14:28,230 --> 00:14:26,240
read them and i think that artificial

379
00:14:29,030 --> 00:14:28,240
intelligence reading these texts that i

380
00:14:31,030 --> 00:14:29,040
mean

381
00:14:33,110 --> 00:14:31,040
if you do google searches you're already

382
00:14:35,910 --> 00:14:33,120
constrained by the algorithms of the

383
00:14:37,750 --> 00:14:35,920
search themselves right so i don't think

384
00:14:39,670 --> 00:14:37,760
artificial intelligence is the answer i

385
00:14:41,509 --> 00:14:39,680
think that human eyes have to go back

386
00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:41,519
and look at these texts because a lot of

387
00:14:46,310 --> 00:14:43,680
things will be missed by artificial

388
00:14:48,470 --> 00:14:46,320
intelligence and there will be biases as

389
00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:48,480
well so you have to have multiple people

390
00:14:54,389 --> 00:14:50,800
looking at these texts so um i was in

391
00:14:56,629 --> 00:14:54,399
the vatican archive and i checked out a

392
00:14:58,470 --> 00:14:56,639
lot of what i consider to be contact

393
00:15:01,030 --> 00:14:58,480
events um

394
00:15:03,990 --> 00:15:01,040
from you know the actual manuscripts and

395
00:15:06,150 --> 00:15:04,000
the kinds of information that i got

396
00:15:07,829 --> 00:15:06,160
couldn't be had

397
00:15:09,590 --> 00:15:07,839
just through

398
00:15:11,350 --> 00:15:09,600
looking at something that you know

399
00:15:13,509 --> 00:15:11,360
you're well you're using

400
00:15:14,949 --> 00:15:13,519
a program for reading i don't think we

401
00:15:17,990 --> 00:15:14,959
have artificial intelligence at the

402
00:15:19,269 --> 00:15:18,000
moment that is up to this task i think

403
00:15:21,910 --> 00:15:19,279
at this point you know the vatican

404
00:15:23,110 --> 00:15:21,920
archive it has so much that's not yet

405
00:15:25,110 --> 00:15:23,120
translated

406
00:15:27,110 --> 00:15:25,120
into different languages into even

407
00:15:30,069 --> 00:15:27,120
modern languages and there's so much

408
00:15:32,870 --> 00:15:30,079
there that can tell us about what we're

409
00:15:34,949 --> 00:15:32,880
experiencing now that i think it's very

410
00:15:36,790 --> 00:15:34,959
important to continue with these kinds

411
00:15:39,110 --> 00:15:36,800
of

412
00:15:40,629 --> 00:15:39,120
research programs basically

413
00:15:41,990 --> 00:15:40,639
i'm going to come back to the vatican

414
00:15:43,749 --> 00:15:42,000
stuff because one of the listener

415
00:15:46,629 --> 00:15:43,759
questions is based on that so i'll give

416
00:15:48,150 --> 00:15:46,639
them credit when we get to it now diana

417
00:15:50,150 --> 00:15:48,160
american cosmic obviously a lot of

418
00:15:53,509 --> 00:15:50,160
people got in touch about the book um

419
00:15:55,430 --> 00:15:53,519
it's become famous worldwide its reviews

420
00:15:57,670 --> 00:15:55,440
are fantastic if you through on amazon

421
00:15:59,670 --> 00:15:57,680
even the people who are slightly

422
00:16:01,030 --> 00:15:59,680
skeptical about it give it glowing

423
00:16:03,509 --> 00:16:01,040
reviews in the way you've approached it

424
00:16:05,430 --> 00:16:03,519
which is i think says a lot what was it

425
00:16:06,870 --> 00:16:05,440
that led you to the idea for american

426
00:16:08,870 --> 00:16:06,880
cosmic

427
00:16:10,629 --> 00:16:08,880
right so what happened was that i had

428
00:16:14,230 --> 00:16:10,639
just finished a book about the catholic

429
00:16:16,470 --> 00:16:14,240
doctrine of purgatory and purgatory is a

430
00:16:17,910 --> 00:16:16,480
for for those who don't know it's a

431
00:16:20,069 --> 00:16:17,920
catholic doctrine it used to be a

432
00:16:21,430 --> 00:16:20,079
christian doctrine i mean catholic is

433
00:16:24,150 --> 00:16:21,440
christian but a lot of people don't know

434
00:16:26,870 --> 00:16:24,160
that so that you know so basically it's

435
00:16:29,829 --> 00:16:26,880
a doctrine of the christian church that

436
00:16:31,749 --> 00:16:29,839
that catholics still uh hold to and this

437
00:16:35,030 --> 00:16:31,759
is this idea that there's a place

438
00:16:36,310 --> 00:16:35,040
between heaven and hell where souls go

439
00:16:39,590 --> 00:16:36,320
if they're not good enough to get into

440
00:16:42,629 --> 00:16:39,600
heaven and so they go there and um

441
00:16:44,870 --> 00:16:42,639
what i found is that for you know 1500

442
00:16:45,910 --> 00:16:44,880
years people practice this dogma and

443
00:16:46,870 --> 00:16:45,920
they they

444
00:16:49,030 --> 00:16:46,880
prayed

445
00:16:50,310 --> 00:16:49,040
for souls in purgatory that they don't

446
00:16:52,389 --> 00:16:50,320
suffer too much and things like that and

447
00:16:54,150 --> 00:16:52,399
then it just disappeared so my question

448
00:16:56,870 --> 00:16:54,160
going into that was

449
00:16:58,310 --> 00:16:56,880
what happened to this dogma you know

450
00:17:01,030 --> 00:16:58,320
and what i did a lot of archival

451
00:17:02,949 --> 00:17:01,040
research and i started in about 100 and

452
00:17:05,029 --> 00:17:02,959
moved up to about 1800

453
00:17:07,270 --> 00:17:05,039
and through my historical research in

454
00:17:10,069 --> 00:17:07,280
these archives they came a lot i came

455
00:17:11,189 --> 00:17:10,079
upon a lot of records and anecdotes

456
00:17:12,549 --> 00:17:11,199
about

457
00:17:14,230 --> 00:17:12,559
um basically

458
00:17:19,669 --> 00:17:14,240
aerial phenomena

459
00:17:22,710 --> 00:17:19,679
been interpreted to be either souls from

460
00:17:24,630 --> 00:17:22,720
purgatory coming to speak to people

461
00:17:26,789 --> 00:17:24,640
or angels

462
00:17:28,950 --> 00:17:26,799
or demons right so there were always

463
00:17:31,029 --> 00:17:28,960
these supernatural explanations for

464
00:17:32,390 --> 00:17:31,039
these aerial phenomena and i kept a

465
00:17:34,789 --> 00:17:32,400
record of it

466
00:17:37,110 --> 00:17:34,799
um and my record grew and grew and grew

467
00:17:39,190 --> 00:17:37,120
at the end of that i had this record and

468
00:17:41,590 --> 00:17:39,200
i published the book for on purgatory

469
00:17:43,750 --> 00:17:41,600
and i i might have one or two of these

470
00:17:45,909 --> 00:17:43,760
anecdotes in there right

471
00:17:47,909 --> 00:17:45,919
and so i showed a friend of mine and i

472
00:17:50,150 --> 00:17:47,919
said what do you think of this i hadn't

473
00:17:50,950 --> 00:17:50,160
thought of ufos at all actually not one

474
00:17:52,710 --> 00:17:50,960
bit

475
00:17:54,390 --> 00:17:52,720
and he looked it over and he read it and

476
00:17:56,470 --> 00:17:54,400
he said you know i think that this looks

477
00:17:57,990 --> 00:17:56,480
like steven spielberg's stuff like it

478
00:18:00,710 --> 00:17:58,000
looks like you know

479
00:18:02,870 --> 00:18:00,720
close encounters ufos and i honestly at

480
00:18:04,870 --> 00:18:02,880
the at that point it was a shock to my

481
00:18:06,070 --> 00:18:04,880
system and i said yeah whatever you're

482
00:18:08,549 --> 00:18:06,080
crazy right

483
00:18:10,630 --> 00:18:08,559
but of course this is how this this uh

484
00:18:13,110 --> 00:18:10,640
research works there's usually some

485
00:18:15,510 --> 00:18:13,120
strange coincidence that happens and

486
00:18:19,029 --> 00:18:15,520
this is what happened there was a ufo

487
00:18:21,430 --> 00:18:19,039
conference in my town and i attended it

488
00:18:23,750 --> 00:18:21,440
and i listened to people who had these

489
00:18:26,630 --> 00:18:23,760
experiences and i recognized that there

490
00:18:29,510 --> 00:18:26,640
was a historical continuity between what

491
00:18:31,669 --> 00:18:29,520
i had studied to today

492
00:18:33,430 --> 00:18:31,679
and so that's how i got into studying

493
00:18:35,750 --> 00:18:33,440
ufos i was like maybe he's right you

494
00:18:39,190 --> 00:18:35,760
know maybe i need to look at these as

495
00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:39,200
modern reports of what we had going on

496
00:18:44,710 --> 00:18:41,440
back in the day and so that's the that's

497
00:18:47,029 --> 00:18:44,720
how i segwayed into studying ufos um i

498
00:18:48,789 --> 00:18:47,039
didn't expect at all what happened i

499
00:18:51,510 --> 00:18:48,799
honestly didn't i didn't expect to meet

500
00:18:53,590 --> 00:18:51,520
people like now gary nolan he's come out

501
00:18:55,510 --> 00:18:53,600
as james in my book thankfully now i can

502
00:18:57,430 --> 00:18:55,520
talk about it um

503
00:18:59,029 --> 00:18:57,440
so i didn't expect to meet people like

504
00:19:01,909 --> 00:18:59,039
that who were at the very top of their

505
00:19:05,990 --> 00:19:01,919
field doing research into

506
00:19:08,950 --> 00:19:06,000
basically ufos now renamed uaps

507
00:19:10,870 --> 00:19:08,960
and your research was there one opinion

508
00:19:13,190 --> 00:19:10,880
that you held at the start

509
00:19:15,669 --> 00:19:13,200
that as you went on changed most

510
00:19:17,669 --> 00:19:15,679
drastically by the end yes

511
00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:17,679
yeah i was completely an atheist a

512
00:19:22,070 --> 00:19:19,840
non-believer when i went in

513
00:19:24,950 --> 00:19:22,080
um in the first two chapters of my book

514
00:19:27,190 --> 00:19:24,960
i talked about how it's unbelievable

515
00:19:29,909 --> 00:19:27,200
that these amazingly intelligent people

516
00:19:31,190 --> 00:19:29,919
i'm with believe in ufos how can that

517
00:19:33,270 --> 00:19:31,200
possibly be

518
00:19:35,909 --> 00:19:33,280
and so we went to new mexico

519
00:19:36,789 --> 00:19:35,919
we uh you know we found these debris

520
00:19:38,470 --> 00:19:36,799
right

521
00:19:40,630 --> 00:19:38,480
and um

522
00:19:42,630 --> 00:19:40,640
you know a lot of weird people showed up

523
00:19:45,430 --> 00:19:42,640
in terms of like you know

524
00:19:47,350 --> 00:19:45,440
alphabet agencies right and things like

525
00:19:49,029 --> 00:19:47,360
that and it was really off-putting

526
00:19:50,789 --> 00:19:49,039
frankly i was like i don't want to deal

527
00:19:53,510 --> 00:19:50,799
with this at all and there were many

528
00:19:55,029 --> 00:19:53,520
times when i decided to not continue on

529
00:19:56,390 --> 00:19:55,039
with my research but somehow i got

530
00:19:57,909 --> 00:19:56,400
pulled back in

531
00:19:59,430 --> 00:19:57,919
and so

532
00:20:01,590 --> 00:19:59,440
how did i change

533
00:20:03,830 --> 00:20:01,600
um by the end of the book i became

534
00:20:05,430 --> 00:20:03,840
agnostic which means that

535
00:20:07,510 --> 00:20:05,440
i'm entertaining the possibility that

536
00:20:08,390 --> 00:20:07,520
this stuff is real right

537
00:20:13,430 --> 00:20:08,400
and

538
00:20:15,110 --> 00:20:13,440
what it is though i'm not going to say

539
00:20:17,750 --> 00:20:15,120
you know because there's two there's

540
00:20:18,950 --> 00:20:17,760
still too much obfuscation there's still

541
00:20:22,149 --> 00:20:18,960
too much

542
00:20:25,029 --> 00:20:22,159
government perception management um and

543
00:20:26,630 --> 00:20:25,039
i'm suspicious of that and i think that

544
00:20:28,310 --> 00:20:26,640
if somebody comes out and says yes we

545
00:20:30,070 --> 00:20:28,320
have an answer i'm not going to believe

546
00:20:32,310 --> 00:20:30,080
it right away

547
00:20:33,110 --> 00:20:32,320
how did your converse yeah no no of

548
00:20:35,029 --> 00:20:33,120
course

549
00:20:36,630 --> 00:20:35,039
how did your conversation change then in

550
00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:36,640
terms of like academia and your

551
00:20:40,710 --> 00:20:38,720
colleagues when you first must have

552
00:20:42,710 --> 00:20:40,720
talked about ufos and maybe what you

553
00:20:45,110 --> 00:20:42,720
were doing with the book and then as

554
00:20:46,470 --> 00:20:45,120
time goes on and you've got this let's

555
00:20:48,390 --> 00:20:46,480
call it it's a hit that was a smash it

556
00:20:50,390 --> 00:20:48,400
was so popular and still is

557
00:20:51,909 --> 00:20:50,400
to to those conversations you have with

558
00:20:53,669 --> 00:20:51,919
them now

559
00:20:55,590 --> 00:20:53,679
has your side of that conversation

560
00:20:57,270 --> 00:20:55,600
changed that much

561
00:21:00,070 --> 00:20:57,280
or do you feel they're different towards

562
00:21:01,350 --> 00:21:00,080
you just with the passage of time

563
00:21:03,430 --> 00:21:01,360
okay

564
00:21:04,870 --> 00:21:03,440
my conversation hasn't changed except

565
00:21:06,470 --> 00:21:04,880
for the fact that when i published the

566
00:21:07,830 --> 00:21:06,480
book i was like oh no there's something

567
00:21:08,789 --> 00:21:07,840
here right

568
00:21:11,190 --> 00:21:08,799
okay

569
00:21:13,590 --> 00:21:11,200
at the time i did this research i was

570
00:21:15,029 --> 00:21:13,600
already a full professor

571
00:21:16,310 --> 00:21:15,039
so you can't you know you're you're

572
00:21:18,310 --> 00:21:16,320
already you're not going to get fired

573
00:21:19,510 --> 00:21:18,320
for doing anything weird right even if

574
00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:19,520
you do something weird you won't get

575
00:21:22,310 --> 00:21:20,400
fired

576
00:21:23,350 --> 00:21:22,320
um i was you know i was the chair of my

577
00:21:24,149 --> 00:21:23,360
department

578
00:21:26,230 --> 00:21:24,159
okay

579
00:21:28,549 --> 00:21:26,240
so i and i was also well known in my

580
00:21:31,830 --> 00:21:28,559
field so i had published enough i'd won

581
00:21:33,430 --> 00:21:31,840
enough grant money to be solid and

582
00:21:35,350 --> 00:21:33,440
although no one's solid like you know

583
00:21:37,590 --> 00:21:35,360
look at the researcher harvard

584
00:21:40,630 --> 00:21:37,600
researcher john mack you know he was a

585
00:21:42,549 --> 00:21:40,640
he was investigated by harvard so

586
00:21:44,630 --> 00:21:42,559
i didn't tell a lot of people what i was

587
00:21:46,390 --> 00:21:44,640
doing i just was doing it i had some

588
00:21:47,830 --> 00:21:46,400
colleagues that i told who by the way

589
00:21:50,710 --> 00:21:47,840
should be doing this too because they

590
00:21:53,909 --> 00:21:50,720
have you know one's uh um an orthodox

591
00:21:56,950 --> 00:21:53,919
priest who knows greek and reads the

592
00:21:59,270 --> 00:21:56,960
texts in greek you know in the original

593
00:22:01,350 --> 00:21:59,280
languages another is a scholar of the

594
00:22:02,789 --> 00:22:01,360
hebrew bible who does the same i mean

595
00:22:04,950 --> 00:22:02,799
these people

596
00:22:06,789 --> 00:22:04,960
have the same idea that i do so i shared

597
00:22:09,029 --> 00:22:06,799
what i was doing with them

598
00:22:12,149 --> 00:22:09,039
but not to my colleagues in general

599
00:22:14,149 --> 00:22:12,159
um they found out of course

600
00:22:15,990 --> 00:22:14,159
so but this is what's happened in terms

601
00:22:19,430 --> 00:22:16,000
of academic scholarship

602
00:22:21,830 --> 00:22:19,440
so in the beginning i think that

603
00:22:23,990 --> 00:22:21,840
people were were okay with it what they

604
00:22:26,549 --> 00:22:24,000
were a little concerned about was that i

605
00:22:28,390 --> 00:22:26,559
was basically making stronger claims

606
00:22:29,270 --> 00:22:28,400
than anybody had before i was basically

607
00:22:31,270 --> 00:22:29,280
saying

608
00:22:34,470 --> 00:22:31,280
i think we need to look at this because

609
00:22:36,310 --> 00:22:34,480
our colleagues in science are basically

610
00:22:39,430 --> 00:22:36,320
saying this is real and they have

611
00:22:41,430 --> 00:22:39,440
anomalous data right and i think that's

612
00:22:44,710 --> 00:22:41,440
pretty weird and we shouldn't just write

613
00:22:46,230 --> 00:22:44,720
it off as a cold war phenomena

614
00:22:47,830 --> 00:22:46,240
and i think that made a lot of my

615
00:22:50,310 --> 00:22:47,840
colleagues pretty uncomfortable now

616
00:22:51,270 --> 00:22:50,320
what's you know what's ironic here is

617
00:22:53,430 --> 00:22:51,280
that

618
00:22:54,789 --> 00:22:53,440
my stuff is peer reviewed and i publish

619
00:22:56,710 --> 00:22:54,799
with oxford

620
00:22:58,789 --> 00:22:56,720
yet it took

621
00:23:00,710 --> 00:22:58,799
coming out in the new york times of all

622
00:23:02,950 --> 00:23:00,720
things for my colleagues to actually get

623
00:23:04,870 --> 00:23:02,960
on board which i think is not

624
00:23:06,390 --> 00:23:04,880
i don't think that's cool

625
00:23:07,669 --> 00:23:06,400
right because you know it should be the

626
00:23:09,430 --> 00:23:07,679
other way around it should be that the

627
00:23:10,710 --> 00:23:09,440
scholars are saying hey yeah we have

628
00:23:12,149 --> 00:23:10,720
some really interesting data here we

629
00:23:14,870 --> 00:23:12,159
need to take a look at it it shouldn't

630
00:23:16,789 --> 00:23:14,880
be media that comes out and says wow

631
00:23:19,110 --> 00:23:16,799
look you know we have this and then the

632
00:23:20,950 --> 00:23:19,120
scholars you know look at it that's just

633
00:23:23,510 --> 00:23:20,960
you know that's just a commentary on

634
00:23:25,990 --> 00:23:23,520
academia today but when that when the

635
00:23:27,750 --> 00:23:26,000
new york times articles hit

636
00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:27,760
and my book was in press it hadn't yet

637
00:23:32,149 --> 00:23:30,080
been published all of a sudden

638
00:23:34,070 --> 00:23:32,159
colleagues from all the universities

639
00:23:37,830 --> 00:23:34,080
called me and said how can we get on

640
00:23:38,710 --> 00:23:37,840
board how can we do this and um now

641
00:23:40,549 --> 00:23:38,720
i'm

642
00:23:42,630 --> 00:23:40,559
part of my job is to review this

643
00:23:45,190 --> 00:23:42,640
scholarship that's coming out

644
00:23:47,269 --> 00:23:45,200
and i spend a lot of my time looking at

645
00:23:50,230 --> 00:23:47,279
new scholarship i mean there is a tidal

646
00:23:53,029 --> 00:23:50,240
wave of this stuff coming in now from

647
00:23:55,430 --> 00:23:53,039
scholars from three four years ago who

648
00:23:58,630 --> 00:23:55,440
felt now it's okay to do this so the

649
00:24:00,230 --> 00:23:58,640
tide has completely changed in academia

650
00:24:02,950 --> 00:24:00,240
and um

651
00:24:05,669 --> 00:24:02,960
you know a lot of it i i give commentary

652
00:24:07,269 --> 00:24:05,679
on and i you know i suggest to presses

653
00:24:09,269 --> 00:24:07,279
i'm the go-to person now for a lot of

654
00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:09,279
the presses you say should we publish

655
00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:11,760
this or should we not publish this and

656
00:24:16,390 --> 00:24:14,000
so if you know if these people are still

657
00:24:17,830 --> 00:24:16,400
looking at documents from

658
00:24:20,230 --> 00:24:17,840
you know you have to understand the

659
00:24:22,070 --> 00:24:20,240
government perception management

660
00:24:23,510 --> 00:24:22,080
produced a lot of documents and if those

661
00:24:26,470 --> 00:24:23,520
people are taking that to be the

662
00:24:28,470 --> 00:24:26,480
scholarship i'll say no don't publish it

663
00:24:31,590 --> 00:24:28,480
because they can't even make the

664
00:24:33,590 --> 00:24:31,600
distinction between what's spin

665
00:24:35,350 --> 00:24:33,600
and then what's actually field research

666
00:24:37,269 --> 00:24:35,360
that's vetted

667
00:24:39,350 --> 00:24:37,279
people like yourself and avi loeb at

668
00:24:41,430 --> 00:24:39,360
harvard now astrophysicists are making

669
00:24:42,950 --> 00:24:41,440
huge headway in that and i think people

670
00:24:45,510 --> 00:24:42,960
have got to thank you for that that

671
00:24:47,510 --> 00:24:45,520
others are coming into now and asking

672
00:24:49,269 --> 00:24:47,520
questions and starting to look and say

673
00:24:51,510 --> 00:24:49,279
is there something to this have we been

674
00:24:53,350 --> 00:24:51,520
missing something and as i'm no

675
00:24:54,870 --> 00:24:53,360
scientist or you know intellectual or

676
00:24:56,470 --> 00:24:54,880
anything like that you know you've been

677
00:24:57,750 --> 00:24:56,480
on like lex friedman's podcast the

678
00:24:59,990 --> 00:24:57,760
really intelligent gentleman that can

679
00:25:01,430 --> 00:25:00,000
have a wonderful conversation with you

680
00:25:03,350 --> 00:25:01,440
and you've got people like this now

681
00:25:05,029 --> 00:25:03,360
entertaining the notion of maybe there's

682
00:25:07,190 --> 00:25:05,039
something out there maybe and they're

683
00:25:08,870 --> 00:25:07,200
using language like non-human alien

684
00:25:11,190 --> 00:25:08,880
extraterrestrial and they're not

685
00:25:13,830 --> 00:25:11,200
laughing you know there's no scoffing

686
00:25:15,990 --> 00:25:13,840
behind it there's almost

687
00:25:17,590 --> 00:25:16,000
it's they almost find it amazing that

688
00:25:19,029 --> 00:25:17,600
they're using this language so freely

689
00:25:21,669 --> 00:25:19,039
but when you see christopher mellon

690
00:25:23,590 --> 00:25:21,679
saying this or the dni avril haynes

691
00:25:25,669 --> 00:25:23,600
talking you know openly in front of

692
00:25:27,750 --> 00:25:25,679
congress and senator gillibrand and

693
00:25:28,789 --> 00:25:27,760
others it's it's a huge tidal wave like

694
00:25:30,710 --> 00:25:28,799
you're saying hopefully that that

695
00:25:31,830 --> 00:25:30,720
carries on forward

696
00:25:34,789 --> 00:25:31,840
what i'd like to know was there

697
00:25:36,950 --> 00:25:34,799
something in your research for for uh

698
00:25:38,230 --> 00:25:36,960
american cosmic that really surprised

699
00:25:39,590 --> 00:25:38,240
you that you weren't expecting to come

700
00:25:40,470 --> 00:25:39,600
across

701
00:25:43,110 --> 00:25:40,480
yes

702
00:25:46,310 --> 00:25:43,120
um the first thing that surprised me

703
00:25:48,470 --> 00:25:46,320
was the amount of government involvement

704
00:25:51,269 --> 00:25:48,480
um and that was disconcerting to me

705
00:25:53,190 --> 00:25:51,279
because it was basically non-open

706
00:25:55,269 --> 00:25:53,200
government involvement at least when i

707
00:25:57,190 --> 00:25:55,279
was doing my research remember i was

708
00:26:01,350 --> 00:25:57,200
doing my research prior to this

709
00:26:04,950 --> 00:26:01,360
disclosure of 2021 by the government and

710
00:26:07,990 --> 00:26:04,960
in 2017 by the new york times so i was

711
00:26:10,710 --> 00:26:08,000
still on the end of if you do this

712
00:26:13,029 --> 00:26:10,720
it's there's something suspect about

713
00:26:14,789 --> 00:26:13,039
doing it because well what happened was

714
00:26:16,470 --> 00:26:14,799
that i did this and i found that there

715
00:26:18,630 --> 00:26:16,480
were these government programs that were

716
00:26:21,430 --> 00:26:18,640
in place and people were a part of them

717
00:26:23,350 --> 00:26:21,440
and doing this and i would go to

718
00:26:25,430 --> 00:26:23,360
conferences of colleagues of mine

719
00:26:27,750 --> 00:26:25,440
academic conferences and i would share

720
00:26:28,950 --> 00:26:27,760
my research and they would say stuff

721
00:26:33,110 --> 00:26:28,960
like

722
00:26:36,149 --> 00:26:33,120
people are fooling you

723
00:26:38,870 --> 00:26:36,159
and no that's not true they weren't were

724
00:26:40,549 --> 00:26:38,880
they so now i can say well no they

725
00:26:42,710 --> 00:26:40,559
weren't but i mean i i knew it at the

726
00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:42,720
time i knew i was right but it's really

727
00:26:46,549 --> 00:26:44,640
hard to be in that position

728
00:26:48,549 --> 00:26:46,559
so um

729
00:26:52,390 --> 00:26:48,559
so the question is then

730
00:26:53,750 --> 00:26:52,400
you know when we continue on here um

731
00:26:57,110 --> 00:26:53,760
you know we have to understand that the

732
00:27:00,149 --> 00:26:57,120
last four years has been has created

733
00:27:01,510 --> 00:27:00,159
this absolute 180 degree

734
00:27:02,549 --> 00:27:01,520
turn

735
00:27:04,390 --> 00:27:02,559
and

736
00:27:06,789 --> 00:27:04,400
that's pretty amazing i didn't plan on

737
00:27:09,110 --> 00:27:06,799
that at all so what surprised me the

738
00:27:11,350 --> 00:27:09,120
government involvement the fact that

739
00:27:13,430 --> 00:27:11,360
people associated with the alphabet

740
00:27:14,310 --> 00:27:13,440
agencies were interested in what i was

741
00:27:16,470 --> 00:27:14,320
doing

742
00:27:18,830 --> 00:27:16,480
um that surprised me that never happened

743
00:27:22,230 --> 00:27:18,840
with my straight up kind of catholic

744
00:27:25,029 --> 00:27:22,240
scholarship um what else surprised me

745
00:27:27,029 --> 00:27:25,039
finding debris and having it

746
00:27:28,789 --> 00:27:27,039
you know analyzed by people with the

747
00:27:31,190 --> 00:27:28,799
equipment and the knowledge to

748
00:27:32,830 --> 00:27:31,200
understand that it's anomalous right

749
00:27:35,909 --> 00:27:32,840
that surprised me

750
00:27:37,990 --> 00:27:35,919
um yeah that was those were two very

751
00:27:40,549 --> 00:27:38,000
shocking kinds of things

752
00:27:42,710 --> 00:27:40,559
did any of that ever carry over to your

753
00:27:44,230 --> 00:27:42,720
your private life and your home life and

754
00:27:45,990 --> 00:27:44,240
you mentioned that there were times you

755
00:27:47,909 --> 00:27:46,000
felt i don't want to keep doing this

756
00:27:49,909 --> 00:27:47,919
anymore was that something that impacted

757
00:27:51,590 --> 00:27:49,919
you or was it just the pressure or

758
00:27:53,909 --> 00:27:51,600
intensity of having

759
00:27:55,269 --> 00:27:53,919
alphabet agencies as we know the ones

760
00:27:58,710 --> 00:27:55,279
you're talking about

761
00:28:02,870 --> 00:27:58,720
being so intrusive and invasive

762
00:28:05,190 --> 00:28:02,880
oh yeah okay so um

763
00:28:07,510 --> 00:28:05,200
yeah so this is a great question it

764
00:28:10,950 --> 00:28:07,520
absolutely changed my life entirely

765
00:28:13,269 --> 00:28:10,960
private public everything um

766
00:28:17,029 --> 00:28:13,279
so so much so that i think of my life in

767
00:28:19,669 --> 00:28:17,039
two you know think of it pre 2012 and

768
00:28:20,950 --> 00:28:19,679
post 2012 right

769
00:28:25,430 --> 00:28:20,960
and

770
00:28:27,430 --> 00:28:25,440
i think it opened opened up my eyes to

771
00:28:29,430 --> 00:28:27,440
um

772
00:28:31,750 --> 00:28:29,440
well there's a lot i felt a lot more

773
00:28:33,110 --> 00:28:31,760
danger frankly when i was when the

774
00:28:35,830 --> 00:28:33,120
government hadn't

775
00:28:37,110 --> 00:28:35,840
admitted that this was happening okay

776
00:28:39,269 --> 00:28:37,120
because

777
00:28:42,070 --> 00:28:39,279
it was i think it there was there was

778
00:28:43,750 --> 00:28:42,080
danger you know there was danger um

779
00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:43,760
and

780
00:28:47,590 --> 00:28:45,840
what if i uncovered something that

781
00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:47,600
people didn't want uncovered which

782
00:28:50,470 --> 00:28:49,200
apparently i think i did

783
00:28:53,110 --> 00:28:50,480
um

784
00:28:55,510 --> 00:28:53,120
and what were the what were going to be

785
00:28:56,389 --> 00:28:55,520
the repercussions for that right

786
00:28:58,710 --> 00:28:56,399
um

787
00:29:01,430 --> 00:28:58,720
there was one point when

788
00:29:04,870 --> 00:29:01,440
my you know my university email account

789
00:29:06,950 --> 00:29:04,880
was doxxed right by specific people and

790
00:29:08,630 --> 00:29:06,960
so was gary nolan's at the time we both

791
00:29:10,230 --> 00:29:08,640
had it happen at the same time and

792
00:29:12,070 --> 00:29:10,240
that's disconcerting

793
00:29:15,029 --> 00:29:12,080
and there were like veiled threats and

794
00:29:15,909 --> 00:29:15,039
things like that disconcerting not cool

795
00:29:17,669 --> 00:29:15,919
right

796
00:29:19,190 --> 00:29:17,679
um a lot of the people that i

797
00:29:21,510 --> 00:29:19,200
interviewed for my book they would have

798
00:29:22,789 --> 00:29:21,520
the same things happen allison cruz

799
00:29:23,830 --> 00:29:22,799
completely

800
00:29:25,029 --> 00:29:23,840
um

801
00:29:28,310 --> 00:29:25,039
harassed

802
00:29:29,669 --> 00:29:28,320
um

803
00:29:32,789 --> 00:29:29,679
scott brown

804
00:29:34,789 --> 00:29:32,799
right all these people so you know that

805
00:29:36,230 --> 00:29:34,799
that's not right but those things

806
00:29:38,389 --> 00:29:36,240
happened

807
00:29:39,269 --> 00:29:38,399
and obviously you mentioned gary nolan

808
00:29:41,190 --> 00:29:39,279
who

809
00:29:43,350 --> 00:29:41,200
was in the phenomenon with jack valet

810
00:29:45,190 --> 00:29:43,360
he's he's been a little bit more media

811
00:29:46,389 --> 00:29:45,200
friendly recently doing some podcasts

812
00:29:47,990 --> 00:29:46,399
and hopefully he's going to be coming on

813
00:29:50,149 --> 00:29:48,000
this podcast in the coming weeks which

814
00:29:51,669 --> 00:29:50,159
would be great great yeah i'm very much

815
00:29:53,430 --> 00:29:51,679
looking forward to speaking to gary what

816
00:29:55,590 --> 00:29:53,440
if and when that does happen

817
00:29:57,029 --> 00:29:55,600
do people like that give you the advice

818
00:29:58,389 --> 00:29:57,039
because i'm guessing this is something

819
00:29:59,669 --> 00:29:58,399
that they themselves like you see have

820
00:30:01,830 --> 00:29:59,679
gone through for a certain amount of

821
00:30:05,110 --> 00:30:01,840
time and if you're involved in handling

822
00:30:06,470 --> 00:30:05,120
potential meta materials or crash debris

823
00:30:08,389 --> 00:30:06,480
whatever it may be

824
00:30:10,070 --> 00:30:08,399
then again these people are they people

825
00:30:11,669 --> 00:30:10,080
you can go to and ask you know what do i

826
00:30:12,710 --> 00:30:11,679
do about this and what sort of advice

827
00:30:17,190 --> 00:30:12,720
did they give

828
00:30:19,350 --> 00:30:17,200
yeah yeah we were buddies so yes um gary

829
00:30:20,870 --> 00:30:19,360
gary and i got just started doing this

830
00:30:26,470 --> 00:30:20,880
at the same time

831
00:30:30,630 --> 00:30:26,480
were both already academics that

832
00:30:33,190 --> 00:30:30,640
were full professors you know um and

833
00:30:35,350 --> 00:30:33,200
so i felt i could trust gary frankly

834
00:30:37,990 --> 00:30:35,360
because he wasn't a ufologist i mean not

835
00:30:39,750 --> 00:30:38,000
that i don't trust ufologists

836
00:30:42,310 --> 00:30:39,760
but you know he was part he was somebody

837
00:30:45,029 --> 00:30:42,320
who who was like me he started his his

838
00:30:47,110 --> 00:30:45,039
uh interest in what he did early on and

839
00:30:49,510 --> 00:30:47,120
got his phd and has done that his whole

840
00:30:52,149 --> 00:30:49,520
life and so um

841
00:30:54,310 --> 00:30:52,159
he and i went through this together um

842
00:30:55,510 --> 00:30:54,320
jacques was the person who helped us in

843
00:30:57,509 --> 00:30:55,520
a sense

844
00:30:59,029 --> 00:30:57,519
in many ways

845
00:31:01,269 --> 00:30:59,039
talked about

846
00:31:05,110 --> 00:31:01,279
well he kind of scared me a lot in the

847
00:31:07,029 --> 00:31:05,120
early times like in 2012 and 2013

848
00:31:09,750 --> 00:31:07,039
he was very honest he said there are

849
00:31:12,149 --> 00:31:09,760
some very nasty people in this field you

850
00:31:15,269 --> 00:31:12,159
know and you have to be very careful

851
00:31:16,389 --> 00:31:15,279
don't trust anybody you know and so when

852
00:31:19,750 --> 00:31:16,399
um

853
00:31:21,590 --> 00:31:19,760
so yeah so so he kind of provided some

854
00:31:24,070 --> 00:31:21,600
background he also talked about the

855
00:31:26,149 --> 00:31:24,080
alphabet agencies and how they work and

856
00:31:28,149 --> 00:31:26,159
i got to see that up close you know and

857
00:31:30,470 --> 00:31:28,159
i got to see exactly the strategies that

858
00:31:33,350 --> 00:31:30,480
they use um

859
00:31:35,430 --> 00:31:33,360
so yes so we did have people that were

860
00:31:38,310 --> 00:31:35,440
helping us out yeah but gary i feel like

861
00:31:40,470 --> 00:31:38,320
gary and i we did this at the same time

862
00:31:42,710 --> 00:31:40,480
um i i'm the one who invited him to the

863
00:31:44,230 --> 00:31:42,720
desert when tyler just didn't you know

864
00:31:47,190 --> 00:31:44,240
he didn't want anybody to go but i knew

865
00:31:47,990 --> 00:31:47,200
he'd like he'd like it if gary went so

866
00:31:50,470 --> 00:31:48,000
um

867
00:31:51,830 --> 00:31:50,480
so we went out to the desert together he

868
00:31:54,070 --> 00:31:51,840
got some of the most interesting

869
00:31:56,149 --> 00:31:54,080
materials there

870
00:31:57,509 --> 00:31:56,159
you talked about euphoria just a good

871
00:31:59,430 --> 00:31:57,519
time to bring up this question then

872
00:32:01,029 --> 00:31:59,440
because it was my next one

873
00:32:02,950 --> 00:32:01,039
i've seen you mention in an interview

874
00:32:04,950 --> 00:32:02,960
that you feel there's three types of

875
00:32:07,190 --> 00:32:04,960
ufologists those interested from a young

876
00:32:09,990 --> 00:32:07,200
age through experiences or media

877
00:32:12,789 --> 00:32:10,000
exposure believing in the et hypothesis

878
00:32:14,230 --> 00:32:12,799
or ath or you've got those who believe

879
00:32:16,630 --> 00:32:14,240
in the more consciousness-based

880
00:32:18,149 --> 00:32:16,640
spiritual side of the phenomenon some

881
00:32:19,909 --> 00:32:18,159
would call it the woo i know that's

882
00:32:21,750 --> 00:32:19,919
almost offensive now to some depending

883
00:32:24,230 --> 00:32:21,760
on what they believe in and there's a

884
00:32:25,669 --> 00:32:24,240
third type which are the invisibles and

885
00:32:28,870 --> 00:32:25,679
this would be the group i'm guessing

886
00:32:31,190 --> 00:32:28,880
like you're you're jacks and your your

887
00:32:33,669 --> 00:32:31,200
gary nolan's who do the work quietly in

888
00:32:35,830 --> 00:32:33,679
the background with almost little to no

889
00:32:37,909 --> 00:32:35,840
social presence or you know clamber for

890
00:32:40,230 --> 00:32:37,919
media attention

891
00:32:42,710 --> 00:32:40,240
and that group uh one of those would be

892
00:32:44,710 --> 00:32:42,720
tyler d in your book uh i wish you named

893
00:32:46,870 --> 00:32:44,720
after tyler durden from fight club can

894
00:32:48,950 --> 00:32:46,880
you talk a little bit about tyler and

895
00:32:51,190 --> 00:32:48,960
obviously in the last what six months to

896
00:32:53,110 --> 00:32:51,200
a year what were found out online

897
00:32:56,789 --> 00:32:53,120
through the bledsoe is ryan bledsoe

898
00:32:58,470 --> 00:32:56,799
tyler's real identity as well

899
00:33:00,389 --> 00:32:58,480
yeah so um

900
00:33:02,630 --> 00:33:00,399
i let if tyler wants to reveal his

901
00:33:04,710 --> 00:33:02,640
identity i let him do it just like if

902
00:33:06,070 --> 00:33:04,720
james wanted to he did

903
00:33:08,830 --> 00:33:06,080
um

904
00:33:11,110 --> 00:33:08,840
but so tyler's part of a group

905
00:33:14,389 --> 00:33:11,120
who is

906
00:33:16,149 --> 00:33:14,399
who i found to be working on this

907
00:33:19,750 --> 00:33:16,159
topic

908
00:33:22,310 --> 00:33:19,760
in a in a completely con constrained way

909
00:33:25,350 --> 00:33:22,320
when i say constrained their lives are

910
00:33:28,070 --> 00:33:25,360
not like my life or no a normal person's

911
00:33:30,470 --> 00:33:28,080
life it they are not like gary nolan

912
00:33:32,630 --> 00:33:30,480
okay so you know gary does his research

913
00:33:34,630 --> 00:33:32,640
and he is what i'm going to be calling

914
00:33:36,149 --> 00:33:34,640
this at the conference that's coming up

915
00:33:37,990 --> 00:33:36,159
i'm going to be calling it the visible

916
00:33:40,549 --> 00:33:38,000
college not the invisible college the

917
00:33:42,310 --> 00:33:40,559
there is a visible college and so gary

918
00:33:43,990 --> 00:33:42,320
would be one a member of that but he's

919
00:33:45,750 --> 00:33:44,000
not a member of fight club because

920
00:33:46,630 --> 00:33:45,760
within fight club if you remember that

921
00:33:48,950 --> 00:33:46,640
movie

922
00:33:50,789 --> 00:33:48,960
you know you don't talk about it so what

923
00:33:53,269 --> 00:33:50,799
i found was that a lot of the people who

924
00:33:55,350 --> 00:33:53,279
would be like let's put it this way

925
00:33:58,230 --> 00:33:55,360
in the space program itself if you talk

926
00:34:00,630 --> 00:33:58,240
to people who say work at nasa or work

927
00:34:03,269 --> 00:34:00,640
at the various other space agencies

928
00:34:04,149 --> 00:34:03,279
they're not going to actually know

929
00:34:08,550 --> 00:34:04,159
the

930
00:34:10,470 --> 00:34:08,560
is pretty weird right so you have jack

931
00:34:13,589 --> 00:34:10,480
parsons and people like that they won't

932
00:34:15,669 --> 00:34:13,599
know who that is even though he you know

933
00:34:16,950 --> 00:34:15,679
jet propulsion laboratory came out of

934
00:34:17,829 --> 00:34:16,960
his work

935
00:34:19,430 --> 00:34:17,839
right

936
00:34:24,869 --> 00:34:19,440
so

937
00:34:27,510 --> 00:34:24,879
know about it but they're still doing

938
00:34:28,869 --> 00:34:27,520
this it's so compartmentalized that

939
00:34:31,109 --> 00:34:28,879
they'll do this

940
00:34:34,470 --> 00:34:31,119
this portion of the work but they their

941
00:34:35,589 --> 00:34:34,480
boss doesn't even know what they do

942
00:34:46,629 --> 00:34:35,599
so

943
00:34:49,030 --> 00:34:46,639
secrecy and in a day and age where you

944
00:34:50,310 --> 00:34:49,040
can find almost everyone and everything

945
00:34:51,510 --> 00:34:50,320
online

946
00:34:54,310 --> 00:34:51,520
what's the the

947
00:34:56,069 --> 00:34:54,320
the benefits to keeping work like that

948
00:34:58,390 --> 00:34:56,079
kept so secretive

949
00:35:00,150 --> 00:34:58,400
yeah so that's one thing that surprised

950
00:35:02,150 --> 00:35:00,160
me i'm glad you brought that up

951
00:35:03,589 --> 00:35:02,160
apparently you can't find everything and

952
00:35:05,750 --> 00:35:03,599
everyone online

953
00:35:07,349 --> 00:35:05,760
so there are you know we tend to think

954
00:35:09,030 --> 00:35:07,359
that you know if somebody's not doesn't

955
00:35:10,310 --> 00:35:09,040
have a google presence or a digital

956
00:35:12,390 --> 00:35:10,320
presence that they're you know they're

957
00:35:14,710 --> 00:35:12,400
not really doing work that's out there

958
00:35:16,630 --> 00:35:14,720
that's absolutely not the case so i

959
00:35:18,790 --> 00:35:16,640
found that a lot of information and a

960
00:35:20,470 --> 00:35:18,800
lot of work that's being done is

961
00:35:22,390 --> 00:35:20,480
completely being done and it's probably

962
00:35:24,310 --> 00:35:22,400
the most innovative that's being done

963
00:35:25,349 --> 00:35:24,320
but it won't be on

964
00:35:28,230 --> 00:35:25,359
um

965
00:35:30,470 --> 00:35:28,240
it won't be on twitter it won't be on

966
00:35:31,670 --> 00:35:30,480
google you know you're not gonna find it

967
00:35:34,630 --> 00:35:31,680
um why

968
00:35:35,589 --> 00:35:34,640
there are people that do control what we

969
00:35:37,990 --> 00:35:35,599
see

970
00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:38,000
on these platforms

971
00:35:43,030 --> 00:35:41,520
it's just a fact so tyler so uh here's

972
00:35:45,910 --> 00:35:43,040
an example

973
00:35:47,589 --> 00:35:45,920
um i've been i've had

974
00:35:50,069 --> 00:35:47,599
things happen to my social media

975
00:35:52,870 --> 00:35:50,079
accounts but also my university account

976
00:35:55,750 --> 00:35:52,880
a few times and on one of these times

977
00:35:58,630 --> 00:35:55,760
some people had like leaked out some

978
00:36:01,030 --> 00:35:58,640
pictures of tyler and immediately i saw

979
00:36:02,710 --> 00:36:01,040
some of those pictures get taken off i

980
00:36:04,470 --> 00:36:02,720
don't know who was taking them off but i

981
00:36:06,950 --> 00:36:04,480
do know that sometimes

982
00:36:08,630 --> 00:36:06,960
information with respect to tyler would

983
00:36:10,790 --> 00:36:08,640
be taken off the internet and it would

984
00:36:14,390 --> 00:36:10,800
be through his work

985
00:36:18,470 --> 00:36:16,870
and again do you feel people like like

986
00:36:19,990 --> 00:36:18,480
tyler again i won't say the name because

987
00:36:22,550 --> 00:36:20,000
it was out there ryan blades i'll put it

988
00:36:24,390 --> 00:36:22,560
online and if that's a discussion that

989
00:36:25,670 --> 00:36:24,400
tyler wants to come out and have then

990
00:36:27,430 --> 00:36:25,680
they can certainly do that will give

991
00:36:29,349 --> 00:36:27,440
them that respect

992
00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:29,359
do these people feel that

993
00:36:34,950 --> 00:36:32,400
by doing this work in a much more

994
00:36:37,270 --> 00:36:34,960
quiet and you know solitary way they

995
00:36:38,950 --> 00:36:37,280
stay away from those alphabet agencies

996
00:36:41,030 --> 00:36:38,960
or are they still getting that same

997
00:36:43,589 --> 00:36:41,040
pressure and surveillance almost from

998
00:36:48,550 --> 00:36:45,270
i would say that they're affiliated with

999
00:36:52,150 --> 00:36:50,390
and that would be why again they're

1000
00:36:53,589 --> 00:36:52,160
lacking in that social presence or

1001
00:36:55,349 --> 00:36:53,599
coming out and talking about that sort

1002
00:36:57,430 --> 00:36:55,359
of work yeah

1003
00:36:58,630 --> 00:36:57,440
yeah i mean we're you know we're just

1004
00:37:00,230 --> 00:36:58,640
about to see

1005
00:37:03,109 --> 00:37:00,240
you know we're seeing a lot of things

1006
00:37:03,990 --> 00:37:03,119
that look like a war but not traditional

1007
00:37:07,349 --> 00:37:04,000
war

1008
00:37:09,990 --> 00:37:07,359
and in this kind of environment

1009
00:37:11,270 --> 00:37:10,000
platforms are very very important in

1010
00:37:13,270 --> 00:37:11,280
terms of

1011
00:37:15,829 --> 00:37:13,280
you know strategic

1012
00:37:18,630 --> 00:37:15,839
maneuvers right and so i think that it's

1013
00:37:21,270 --> 00:37:18,640
it makes perfect sense that if you have

1014
00:37:24,150 --> 00:37:21,280
something as

1015
00:37:26,550 --> 00:37:24,160
potentially if if it's true and it is

1016
00:37:28,150 --> 00:37:26,560
that tyler was able to

1017
00:37:30,790 --> 00:37:28,160
use these

1018
00:37:33,190 --> 00:37:30,800
things that he found and these things

1019
00:37:35,510 --> 00:37:33,200
that he thought he found okay even if he

1020
00:37:38,390 --> 00:37:35,520
if he didn't really he's using this to

1021
00:37:40,870 --> 00:37:38,400
create actual biotechnologies that work

1022
00:37:43,670 --> 00:37:40,880
in our efficacious if that's the case

1023
00:37:46,390 --> 00:37:43,680
what could be done in other sectors so

1024
00:37:47,270 --> 00:37:46,400
you know let's not be naive

1025
00:37:48,870 --> 00:37:47,280
sure

1026
00:37:52,069 --> 00:37:48,880
i want to ask you you've mentioned the

1027
00:37:54,950 --> 00:37:52,079
word ufology a few times and to many in

1028
00:37:56,310 --> 00:37:54,960
2022 ufology is almost a bad word or a

1029
00:37:58,230 --> 00:37:56,320
dirty word

1030
00:38:01,829 --> 00:37:58,240
and it tends to now get linked with

1031
00:38:04,150 --> 00:38:01,839
people from the the 70s 80s 90s you know

1032
00:38:05,670 --> 00:38:04,160
the the conference circuit the same

1033
00:38:07,750 --> 00:38:05,680
names people who maybe make quite a lot

1034
00:38:10,390 --> 00:38:07,760
of money from the subject that it's

1035
00:38:12,630 --> 00:38:10,400
almost a virus doing harm to the genuine

1036
00:38:14,390 --> 00:38:12,640
efforts of some form of disclosure

1037
00:38:16,870 --> 00:38:14,400
do you agree with that did you see a

1038
00:38:18,470 --> 00:38:16,880
stigma to that word ufology

1039
00:38:20,790 --> 00:38:18,480
and some of the names who were attached

1040
00:38:22,710 --> 00:38:20,800
to it

1041
00:38:25,109 --> 00:38:22,720
okay so i think that

1042
00:38:27,270 --> 00:38:25,119
remember we have project blue book which

1043
00:38:30,470 --> 00:38:27,280
you know part of that project was to

1044
00:38:32,310 --> 00:38:30,480
debunk and also discredit people who had

1045
00:38:34,630 --> 00:38:32,320
genuine experiences and who wanted to

1046
00:38:37,829 --> 00:38:34,640
study those so i think that we're seeing

1047
00:38:40,870 --> 00:38:37,839
a lot of fallout from that and so when

1048
00:38:43,349 --> 00:38:40,880
um ufology gets stigmatized of course

1049
00:38:45,910 --> 00:38:43,359
it's going to be stigmatized there was a

1050
00:38:47,990 --> 00:38:45,920
you know government effort to do so uh

1051
00:38:50,069 --> 00:38:48,000
so you do see that but then you also

1052
00:38:52,230 --> 00:38:50,079
have people that study the topic but

1053
00:38:54,630 --> 00:38:52,240
they're not ufologists so take me i'm

1054
00:38:56,870 --> 00:38:54,640
not a ufologist i come from it from an

1055
00:38:59,430 --> 00:38:56,880
academic perspective gary nolan he's not

1056
00:39:03,030 --> 00:38:59,440
a ufologist he's a scientist studying it

1057
00:39:04,069 --> 00:39:03,040
from his scientific framework um so

1058
00:39:05,750 --> 00:39:04,079
you know

1059
00:39:07,990 --> 00:39:05,760
i think that you follow just start off

1060
00:39:10,069 --> 00:39:08,000
that way right they start off as people

1061
00:39:11,990 --> 00:39:10,079
who just have a framework for studying

1062
00:39:13,430 --> 00:39:12,000
this and then um

1063
00:39:17,270 --> 00:39:13,440
then if they do it for a long time they

1064
00:39:18,470 --> 00:39:17,280
get associated with the ufology um

1065
00:39:20,550 --> 00:39:18,480
you know there's

1066
00:39:23,109 --> 00:39:20,560
there are groups right there are groups

1067
00:39:25,030 --> 00:39:23,119
that there are also remember in my book

1068
00:39:27,270 --> 00:39:25,040
i also go through a lot of the hoaxes i

1069
00:39:29,829 --> 00:39:27,280
go through a lot of people who hoax ufo

1070
00:39:31,190 --> 00:39:29,839
pictures those tend to get a lot more

1071
00:39:33,990 --> 00:39:31,200
hits than

1072
00:39:36,630 --> 00:39:34,000
anomalous ones right and so you know we

1073
00:39:38,710 --> 00:39:36,640
tend to have an idea of what a ufo might

1074
00:39:40,550 --> 00:39:38,720
look like and if we see something that

1075
00:39:42,870 --> 00:39:40,560
doesn't look like that perhaps it's

1076
00:39:45,190 --> 00:39:42,880
actually anomalous people aren't going

1077
00:39:47,270 --> 00:39:45,200
to identify it as that they're they're

1078
00:39:50,069 --> 00:39:47,280
going to ignore it so it's generally the

1079
00:39:52,790 --> 00:39:50,079
hoaxes that get a lot more

1080
00:39:54,829 --> 00:39:52,800
they get a lot more traction in social

1081
00:39:57,589 --> 00:39:54,839
media than things that are actually

1082
00:39:59,349 --> 00:39:57,599
anomalous and you mentioned those those

1083
00:40:01,030 --> 00:39:59,359
agencies and the pressure that you felt

1084
00:40:03,030 --> 00:40:01,040
at times during the research for the

1085
00:40:04,710 --> 00:40:03,040
book and you felt like walking away was

1086
00:40:07,510 --> 00:40:04,720
there other times where people from

1087
00:40:09,750 --> 00:40:07,520
within ufology or the world of ufos like

1088
00:40:11,510 --> 00:40:09,760
jack said you can't trust anyone that

1089
00:40:13,510 --> 00:40:11,520
you felt similar that there was a

1090
00:40:15,589 --> 00:40:13,520
pressure or you were being pushed

1091
00:40:17,510 --> 00:40:15,599
deliberately in the wrong direction from

1092
00:40:19,990 --> 00:40:17,520
them

1093
00:40:20,870 --> 00:40:20,000
you mean with misinformation potentially

1094
00:40:25,109 --> 00:40:20,880
yeah

1095
00:40:27,270 --> 00:40:25,119
time almost every day

1096
00:40:29,190 --> 00:40:27,280
i get if i get stuff every day that

1097
00:40:31,430 --> 00:40:29,200
looks like misinformation

1098
00:40:34,230 --> 00:40:31,440
um so in so this is something that

1099
00:40:35,190 --> 00:40:34,240
jacques said to me as well and also gary

1100
00:40:37,109 --> 00:40:35,200
um

1101
00:40:38,710 --> 00:40:37,119
that there's an idea it's called

1102
00:40:40,710 --> 00:40:38,720
discernment and it comes from the

1103
00:40:42,950 --> 00:40:40,720
catholic tradition but basically it's

1104
00:40:45,750 --> 00:40:42,960
being able to read really well not

1105
00:40:48,950 --> 00:40:45,760
physically read but read people and just

1106
00:40:51,750 --> 00:40:48,960
read situations and events and you have

1107
00:40:54,309 --> 00:40:51,760
to hone that in this in this research

1108
00:40:56,550 --> 00:40:54,319
and if you don't have a good ability to

1109
00:40:58,390 --> 00:40:56,560
figure that out this this is good this

1110
00:41:00,990 --> 00:40:58,400
is going to be hard research to do

1111
00:41:04,230 --> 00:41:01,000
because there's so much

1112
00:41:06,309 --> 00:41:04,240
agenda-driven narrative that gets placed

1113
00:41:08,230 --> 00:41:06,319
in front of you i mean i had to think

1114
00:41:09,670 --> 00:41:08,240
that way when i was at in the first

1115
00:41:12,150 --> 00:41:09,680
chapter of the book with gary you know

1116
00:41:14,470 --> 00:41:12,160
we were with tyler in the desert and we

1117
00:41:16,230 --> 00:41:14,480
we constantly kind of had a little you

1118
00:41:18,470 --> 00:41:16,240
know talks among ourselves you know when

1119
00:41:19,910 --> 00:41:18,480
tyler was kind of far away we'd say

1120
00:41:22,390 --> 00:41:19,920
what you know are we being fed this

1121
00:41:24,630 --> 00:41:22,400
misinformation and eventually he said

1122
00:41:26,390 --> 00:41:24,640
we'll know when i analyze it we'll know

1123
00:41:28,390 --> 00:41:26,400
then and i said okay

1124
00:41:30,309 --> 00:41:28,400
so yeah

1125
00:41:31,990 --> 00:41:30,319
i used to believe that if the world was

1126
00:41:34,950 --> 00:41:32,000
exposed to and i think this is quite a

1127
00:41:36,630 --> 00:41:34,960
common belief among people that

1128
00:41:38,230 --> 00:41:36,640
as soon as we find out we're not alone

1129
00:41:40,309 --> 00:41:38,240
or you know the old aliens on the white

1130
00:41:41,910 --> 00:41:40,319
house lawn scenario religions would

1131
00:41:43,430 --> 00:41:41,920
collapse which is always the common

1132
00:41:44,470 --> 00:41:43,440
phrase i think people tend to use

1133
00:41:46,230 --> 00:41:44,480
however

1134
00:41:48,630 --> 00:41:46,240
especially during this podcast the last

1135
00:41:49,349 --> 00:41:48,640
18 months i find that many of the people

1136
00:41:51,990 --> 00:41:49,359
who

1137
00:41:54,390 --> 00:41:52,000
are the most open-minded to the idea of

1138
00:41:56,230 --> 00:41:54,400
aliens or non-human intelligences are

1139
00:41:57,510 --> 00:41:56,240
actually those who are quite religious

1140
00:41:59,910 --> 00:41:57,520
themselves

1141
00:42:01,750 --> 00:41:59,920
why do you think that is the case

1142
00:42:04,790 --> 00:42:01,760
yes this is a great question i get asked

1143
00:42:07,510 --> 00:42:04,800
this all the time so basically if

1144
00:42:09,670 --> 00:42:07,520
if we were to have you know absolute

1145
00:42:11,589 --> 00:42:09,680
evidence and and a lot of people would

1146
00:42:12,950 --> 00:42:11,599
say well the religions would just

1147
00:42:16,069 --> 00:42:12,960
disintegrate

1148
00:42:18,550 --> 00:42:16,079
i i completely disagree with that and

1149
00:42:20,790 --> 00:42:18,560
the reason is is because i think that

1150
00:42:23,190 --> 00:42:20,800
people who are like humanist atheists

1151
00:42:25,190 --> 00:42:23,200
would probably have the hardest time

1152
00:42:27,589 --> 00:42:25,200
and this is the reason because within

1153
00:42:30,309 --> 00:42:27,599
the space of most religious traditions

1154
00:42:33,670 --> 00:42:30,319
there already exists categories of

1155
00:42:37,430 --> 00:42:33,680
non-human intelligences be those

1156
00:42:39,829 --> 00:42:37,440
demons you know um bodhisattvas

1157
00:42:41,750 --> 00:42:39,839
angels things like that they already

1158
00:42:44,150 --> 00:42:41,760
exist within their framework they

1159
00:42:45,910 --> 00:42:44,160
already believe that a lot of people who

1160
00:42:47,750 --> 00:42:45,920
are religious

1161
00:42:49,510 --> 00:42:47,760
would not be surprised i think that they

1162
00:42:51,109 --> 00:42:49,520
would frame it within their own

1163
00:42:53,829 --> 00:42:51,119
religious world view you know their

1164
00:42:55,670 --> 00:42:53,839
religions already have spaces for

1165
00:42:57,190 --> 00:42:55,680
thinking about these kinds of things

1166
00:42:59,589 --> 00:42:57,200
another thing that people don't realize

1167
00:43:02,230 --> 00:42:59,599
is that we're not you know we're we're

1168
00:43:04,069 --> 00:43:02,240
in the 20th to 21st century but we're

1169
00:43:05,670 --> 00:43:04,079
not the first people to be talking about

1170
00:43:07,430 --> 00:43:05,680
extraterrestrial life and i'm not

1171
00:43:09,670 --> 00:43:07,440
talking about like non-human

1172
00:43:10,470 --> 00:43:09,680
intelligence i'm talking about actual

1173
00:43:12,390 --> 00:43:10,480
you know

1174
00:43:14,790 --> 00:43:12,400
beings on other planets i mean people

1175
00:43:17,030 --> 00:43:14,800
were talking about this way back in the

1176
00:43:19,349 --> 00:43:17,040
day in various different religious

1177
00:43:21,510 --> 00:43:19,359
traditions

1178
00:43:23,589 --> 00:43:21,520
now i really enjoyed your appearance on

1179
00:43:24,550 --> 00:43:23,599
lex friedman and again i watched that

1180
00:43:27,190 --> 00:43:24,560
recently

1181
00:43:28,630 --> 00:43:27,200
and researching this and at one point

1182
00:43:30,069 --> 00:43:28,640
you were talking about the monoliths

1183
00:43:32,230 --> 00:43:30,079
that had appeared in the desert and that

1184
00:43:34,309 --> 00:43:32,240
was over a year ago now and in various

1185
00:43:36,790 --> 00:43:34,319
different places and was it art or was

1186
00:43:38,309 --> 00:43:36,800
it something else and i liked the he

1187
00:43:39,510 --> 00:43:38,319
held up his phone and it was like it

1188
00:43:40,870 --> 00:43:39,520
looks like a screen and that's the way

1189
00:43:42,950 --> 00:43:40,880
the monoliths looked

1190
00:43:45,589 --> 00:43:42,960
and you started a conversation that got

1191
00:43:47,829 --> 00:43:45,599
me thinking i'm reading the three body

1192
00:43:50,150 --> 00:43:47,839
problem just now and doing my best to

1193
00:43:51,910 --> 00:43:50,160
work my way through that with

1194
00:43:53,270 --> 00:43:51,920
it's hard enough to read with the ideas

1195
00:43:54,710 --> 00:43:53,280
that are in it but also the the

1196
00:43:56,150 --> 00:43:54,720
translation and everything but it's

1197
00:43:58,309 --> 00:43:56,160
fascinating

1198
00:43:59,510 --> 00:43:58,319
would disclosure be as likely to happen

1199
00:44:01,589 --> 00:43:59,520
now on

1200
00:44:02,630 --> 00:44:01,599
the internet rather than a physical

1201
00:44:05,109 --> 00:44:02,640
space

1202
00:44:07,030 --> 00:44:05,119
given how much time we spend online

1203
00:44:08,950 --> 00:44:07,040
would that you know a non-human

1204
00:44:11,109 --> 00:44:08,960
intelligence or a race of alien beings

1205
00:44:13,349 --> 00:44:11,119
view our internet as a viable way to

1206
00:44:15,270 --> 00:44:13,359
communicate and thinking we're already

1207
00:44:17,910 --> 00:44:15,280
moving away from physical material

1208
00:44:20,870 --> 00:44:17,920
things having less and less value with

1209
00:44:21,750 --> 00:44:20,880
nfts and cryptocurrency now becoming the

1210
00:44:22,390 --> 00:44:21,760
norm

1211
00:44:24,950 --> 00:44:22,400
yeah

1212
00:44:27,270 --> 00:44:24,960
so this is good this is a great

1213
00:44:29,750 --> 00:44:27,280
um direction okay so

1214
00:44:31,990 --> 00:44:29,760
um the book that i'm working on now um

1215
00:44:34,309 --> 00:44:32,000
the name of it is uh i've changed the

1216
00:44:36,710 --> 00:44:34,319
name so the the the publisher will

1217
00:44:39,030 --> 00:44:36,720
change the name i promise that but

1218
00:44:41,990 --> 00:44:39,040
as i continue on it changes and now i'm

1219
00:44:44,069 --> 00:44:42,000
calling it tethering into contact and so

1220
00:44:47,589 --> 00:44:44,079
this idea that

1221
00:44:49,589 --> 00:44:47,599
technology is a space so basically this

1222
00:44:51,430 --> 00:44:49,599
idea and you know i tried to get there

1223
00:44:53,430 --> 00:44:51,440
in american cosmic too this idea of

1224
00:44:55,270 --> 00:44:53,440
technology is not a tool that we use

1225
00:44:56,790 --> 00:44:55,280
that's apart from ourselves but kind of

1226
00:45:00,069 --> 00:44:56,800
a necessary

1227
00:45:02,150 --> 00:45:00,079
part of our evolution right and um

1228
00:45:04,390 --> 00:45:02,160
i so some of the people i feature in

1229
00:45:07,430 --> 00:45:04,400
this new book are people who use

1230
00:45:09,990 --> 00:45:07,440
technology to tether into contact and

1231
00:45:12,870 --> 00:45:10,000
the way if we wanted to have a visual of

1232
00:45:16,069 --> 00:45:12,880
that in many ways it seems like that

1233
00:45:18,150 --> 00:45:16,079
movie avatar by james cameron remember

1234
00:45:21,030 --> 00:45:18,160
it was that movie really the most

1235
00:45:23,750 --> 00:45:21,040
important takeaway in my opinion is that

1236
00:45:25,990 --> 00:45:23,760
you can't enter these alien worlds

1237
00:45:29,510 --> 00:45:26,000
except through technology and that's how

1238
00:45:32,069 --> 00:45:29,520
that that hero of that story enters into

1239
00:45:35,030 --> 00:45:32,079
this new world which is this non-human

1240
00:45:37,030 --> 00:45:35,040
world right and so you know there are

1241
00:45:38,630 --> 00:45:37,040
other dimensions time is

1242
00:45:41,990 --> 00:45:38,640
a space time it's another dimension

1243
00:45:43,190 --> 00:45:42,000
right so i'm so the people that are i'm

1244
00:45:45,750 --> 00:45:43,200
working with them now they're

1245
00:45:48,390 --> 00:45:45,760
technologists and scientists um they're

1246
00:45:49,910 --> 00:45:48,400
doing it they believe they're in contact

1247
00:45:51,829 --> 00:45:49,920
and they're doing this through

1248
00:45:54,069 --> 00:45:51,839
technologies that they've created in

1249
00:45:56,309 --> 00:45:54,079
order to tether into these other worlds

1250
00:45:58,790 --> 00:45:56,319
so if we do have some kind of

1251
00:46:00,630 --> 00:45:58,800
communication i believe absolutely it's

1252
00:46:02,470 --> 00:46:00,640
going to be through

1253
00:46:05,589 --> 00:46:02,480
technology

1254
00:46:07,750 --> 00:46:05,599
would we instantly be able to recognize

1255
00:46:09,829 --> 00:46:07,760
something like that and i don't want to

1256
00:46:10,950 --> 00:46:09,839
spoil the three body problems i know

1257
00:46:13,109 --> 00:46:10,960
there's listeners going through it just

1258
00:46:16,710 --> 00:46:13,119
now but there's the idea that there's a

1259
00:46:18,470 --> 00:46:16,720
video game used and scientists find that

1260
00:46:19,589 --> 00:46:18,480
we're almost in some sort of contact

1261
00:46:21,829 --> 00:46:19,599
with another

1262
00:46:24,150 --> 00:46:21,839
alien race which is on its way here

1263
00:46:27,109 --> 00:46:24,160
through this strange video game and it

1264
00:46:28,710 --> 00:46:27,119
shows the passage of time and it yeah it

1265
00:46:30,710 --> 00:46:28,720
goes a bit crazy but you have to really

1266
00:46:31,990 --> 00:46:30,720
read it i can't do it just explaining it

1267
00:46:34,309 --> 00:46:32,000
do you think there's a chance that we

1268
00:46:36,150 --> 00:46:34,319
wouldn't know if we were directly being

1269
00:46:37,430 --> 00:46:36,160
influenced by something else from from

1270
00:46:39,829 --> 00:46:37,440
elsewhere

1271
00:46:41,349 --> 00:46:39,839
yes absolutely i think it's um

1272
00:46:43,589 --> 00:46:41,359
yes so if i were to take off my

1273
00:46:45,910 --> 00:46:43,599
professor hat and basically say

1274
00:46:47,990 --> 00:46:45,920
yeah i i'm on board with that i think

1275
00:46:50,230 --> 00:46:48,000
that video games are way more

1276
00:46:52,309 --> 00:46:50,240
interesting than

1277
00:46:54,550 --> 00:46:52,319
scholars and scientists give them credit

1278
00:46:57,270 --> 00:46:54,560
for i mean they're massively changing

1279
00:46:59,030 --> 00:46:57,280
the way in which people live

1280
00:47:01,670 --> 00:46:59,040
and believe because a lot of the

1281
00:47:03,750 --> 00:47:01,680
mythologies that are i see it with my

1282
00:47:06,950 --> 00:47:03,760
own kids like the mythologies that guide

1283
00:47:09,510 --> 00:47:06,960
them are coming from their video games

1284
00:47:12,309 --> 00:47:09,520
and then um you know i have students too

1285
00:47:14,390 --> 00:47:12,319
who i'm in constant conversation with

1286
00:47:16,550 --> 00:47:14,400
about like the new forms of life

1287
00:47:19,030 --> 00:47:16,560
non-human life in video games and things

1288
00:47:20,549 --> 00:47:19,040
like that so yeah i think that's

1289
00:47:22,069 --> 00:47:20,559
that's

1290
00:47:24,870 --> 00:47:22,079
and if we no i don't think we're going

1291
00:47:26,390 --> 00:47:24,880
to be conscious of being controlled by

1292
00:47:28,150 --> 00:47:26,400
or influenced

1293
00:47:30,069 --> 00:47:28,160
i don't think so

1294
00:47:32,309 --> 00:47:30,079
with technology like elon musk's

1295
00:47:34,549 --> 00:47:32,319
controversial neuralink on the horizon

1296
00:47:36,630 --> 00:47:34,559
and plant medicines and their effect on

1297
00:47:38,230 --> 00:47:36,640
consciousness being studied it seems

1298
00:47:39,589 --> 00:47:38,240
that we're maybe not far away from

1299
00:47:41,990 --> 00:47:39,599
understanding the nature of

1300
00:47:44,309 --> 00:47:42,000
consciousness and what it actually is

1301
00:47:46,710 --> 00:47:44,319
there's a lot of links also between ufos

1302
00:47:48,549 --> 00:47:46,720
and consciousness such as others with a

1303
00:47:50,630 --> 00:47:48,559
capital o communicating through

1304
00:47:52,470 --> 00:47:50,640
telepathy or having consciousness power

1305
00:47:54,630 --> 00:47:52,480
technology do you think that

1306
00:47:56,870 --> 00:47:54,640
understanding consciousness is key to

1307
00:47:59,750 --> 00:47:56,880
understanding this phenomenon

1308
00:48:01,670 --> 00:47:59,760
yep okay so that's a great question um

1309
00:48:03,990 --> 00:48:01,680
i'm in the process of hammering out my

1310
00:48:07,589 --> 00:48:04,000
talk that i'll be giving soon and part

1311
00:48:09,430 --> 00:48:07,599
of it is that i'm identifying the idea

1312
00:48:11,589 --> 00:48:09,440
of consciousness and consciousness is

1313
00:48:12,790 --> 00:48:11,599
giant right so you know it's a huge

1314
00:48:15,510 --> 00:48:12,800
category

1315
00:48:17,589 --> 00:48:15,520
philosophers talk about it in very

1316
00:48:19,030 --> 00:48:17,599
specific ways that the general

1317
00:48:20,390 --> 00:48:19,040
population

1318
00:48:23,990 --> 00:48:20,400
i mean they don't need to know all that

1319
00:48:26,150 --> 00:48:24,000
because it's like it's so technical but

1320
00:48:28,230 --> 00:48:26,160
when i think about people like let's

1321
00:48:30,950 --> 00:48:28,240
take a couple of examples like edgar

1322
00:48:32,549 --> 00:48:30,960
mitchell the uh former well he's

1323
00:48:35,430 --> 00:48:32,559
deceased now but you know the astronaut

1324
00:48:37,750 --> 00:48:35,440
edgar mitchell um he had experience in

1325
00:48:39,670 --> 00:48:37,760
space he was doing research into remote

1326
00:48:42,150 --> 00:48:39,680
viewing by the way on his in his space

1327
00:48:43,910 --> 00:48:42,160
capsule and telepathy he had this

1328
00:48:45,030 --> 00:48:43,920
experience and he came back and he

1329
00:48:48,069 --> 00:48:45,040
founded

1330
00:48:50,390 --> 00:48:48,079
uh ions which is a space where he's

1331
00:48:52,069 --> 00:48:50,400
trying to understand consciousness okay

1332
00:48:54,150 --> 00:48:52,079
if you go to tyler d in my book the

1333
00:48:56,230 --> 00:48:54,160
reason why he came to me i didn't go to

1334
00:48:58,390 --> 00:48:56,240
him by the way he sought me out and he

1335
00:49:00,230 --> 00:48:58,400
said that a mentor of his in the space

1336
00:49:03,510 --> 00:49:00,240
program said that the next frontier of

1337
00:49:05,270 --> 00:49:03,520
understanding ufos was consciousness

1338
00:49:06,950 --> 00:49:05,280
okay all right then you have someone

1339
00:49:08,470 --> 00:49:06,960
like robert bigelow who's been doing

1340
00:49:10,630 --> 00:49:08,480
this for a long time in fact we should

1341
00:49:12,150 --> 00:49:10,640
just call him a ufologist right so he

1342
00:49:14,630 --> 00:49:12,160
might be the the one billionaire

1343
00:49:17,430 --> 00:49:14,640
ufologist yeah although i know there's

1344
00:49:20,230 --> 00:49:17,440
there are others okay so um

1345
00:49:21,990 --> 00:49:20,240
so he now has uh he started a group or

1346
00:49:24,150 --> 00:49:22,000
he's starting a group like i don't know

1347
00:49:25,750 --> 00:49:24,160
if he has started it yet and the focus

1348
00:49:27,910 --> 00:49:25,760
of that is going to be consciousness

1349
00:49:30,309 --> 00:49:27,920
okay so what's up with consciousness

1350
00:49:32,150 --> 00:49:30,319
um i don't i you know i hate to say it

1351
00:49:34,710 --> 00:49:32,160
but i'm not convinced that we're on the

1352
00:49:37,270 --> 00:49:34,720
brink of understanding consciousness um

1353
00:49:39,190 --> 00:49:37,280
i think it's it's way too weird to

1354
00:49:41,430 --> 00:49:39,200
figure out but do i think that this is

1355
00:49:43,750 --> 00:49:41,440
the frontier for understanding uaps and

1356
00:49:45,670 --> 00:49:43,760
ufos absolutely and the reason i think

1357
00:49:47,910 --> 00:49:45,680
that is because i think

1358
00:49:50,790 --> 00:49:47,920
so if you go back in time and you go to

1359
00:49:52,710 --> 00:49:50,800
people like you know for western society

1360
00:49:55,270 --> 00:49:52,720
at least western tradition you have the

1361
00:49:57,510 --> 00:49:55,280
the greek um socratics right you have

1362
00:49:59,670 --> 00:49:57,520
socrates and plato well these people

1363
00:50:01,990 --> 00:49:59,680
were basically saying that

1364
00:50:04,790 --> 00:50:02,000
reality something that's that's actually

1365
00:50:06,549 --> 00:50:04,800
more real than this physical 3d reality

1366
00:50:08,790 --> 00:50:06,559
we live in is something that you can

1367
00:50:11,349 --> 00:50:08,800
only abstract it's only through your

1368
00:50:12,950 --> 00:50:11,359
mind it's abstract thinking right and so

1369
00:50:14,470 --> 00:50:12,960
they they developed these well they

1370
00:50:16,870 --> 00:50:14,480
didn't develop they discovered these

1371
00:50:19,109 --> 00:50:16,880
things called the platonic forms these

1372
00:50:20,870 --> 00:50:19,119
were actually objects that weren't in

1373
00:50:23,430 --> 00:50:20,880
our reality they weren't in our 3d

1374
00:50:26,630 --> 00:50:23,440
reality and people are mathematicians

1375
00:50:28,230 --> 00:50:26,640
are still figuring that out today so my

1376
00:50:30,309 --> 00:50:28,240
idea is that

1377
00:50:31,990 --> 00:50:30,319
we are going to have a bridge to lead us

1378
00:50:35,030 --> 00:50:32,000
to understand these and that bridge will

1379
00:50:37,910 --> 00:50:35,040
be tech right maybe it will be neurolink

1380
00:50:39,430 --> 00:50:37,920
maybe not so that's that's what i'm

1381
00:50:41,109 --> 00:50:39,440
that's why i think consciousness is what

1382
00:50:42,630 --> 00:50:41,119
these people are talking about but i

1383
00:50:44,390 --> 00:50:42,640
don't think they understand that right

1384
00:50:47,670 --> 00:50:44,400
now i think that they don't get that

1385
00:50:49,750 --> 00:50:47,680
technology is inextricable from what we

1386
00:50:52,790 --> 00:50:49,760
are going to understand consciousness to

1387
00:50:54,790 --> 00:50:52,800
be if we do ever understand it at all

1388
00:50:56,230 --> 00:50:54,800
interesting have a couple more questions

1389
00:50:58,309 --> 00:50:56,240
before we get to the the listener

1390
00:50:59,910 --> 00:50:58,319
questions that we've got um so i'll try

1391
00:51:02,069 --> 00:50:59,920
and get through these now we are hearing

1392
00:51:03,910 --> 00:51:02,079
from people like louisa lozondo that

1393
00:51:05,510 --> 00:51:03,920
there are indeed those inside the us

1394
00:51:07,510 --> 00:51:05,520
government that because of their own

1395
00:51:10,150 --> 00:51:07,520
beliefs they do not want to discuss the

1396
00:51:13,109 --> 00:51:10,160
topic of ufos especially out in public

1397
00:51:14,630 --> 00:51:13,119
as they feed it demonic in nature

1398
00:51:15,990 --> 00:51:14,640
have you heard much about that and is

1399
00:51:18,549 --> 00:51:16,000
that something you came across again

1400
00:51:21,270 --> 00:51:18,559
within your own research

1401
00:51:23,750 --> 00:51:21,280
i have come across that um i would have

1402
00:51:26,230 --> 00:51:23,760
um there were people that i know

1403
00:51:28,309 --> 00:51:26,240
and that you know and the listeners know

1404
00:51:30,790 --> 00:51:28,319
who believe that um but they don't

1405
00:51:33,750 --> 00:51:30,800
believe that it doesn't stop them from

1406
00:51:36,549 --> 00:51:33,760
talking about it but they're you know

1407
00:51:37,750 --> 00:51:36,559
they they do they're

1408
00:51:38,870 --> 00:51:37,760
for whatever better word they're

1409
00:51:41,829 --> 00:51:38,880
religious

1410
00:51:43,990 --> 00:51:41,839
and they they conceive of this as

1411
00:51:47,109 --> 00:51:44,000
um kind of like within the framework of

1412
00:51:49,349 --> 00:51:47,119
religion and not extraterrestrial

1413
00:51:52,069 --> 00:51:49,359
so yes i came across that

1414
00:51:53,910 --> 00:51:52,079
do you think these labels of

1415
00:51:57,109 --> 00:51:53,920
angels and demons

1416
00:51:58,630 --> 00:51:57,119
are just the way people understood

1417
00:52:00,230 --> 00:51:58,640
millennia ago when they wrote these

1418
00:52:02,470 --> 00:52:00,240
religious texts

1419
00:52:05,190 --> 00:52:02,480
something that is actually probably

1420
00:52:07,349 --> 00:52:05,200
alien or from another place

1421
00:52:10,470 --> 00:52:07,359
okay so this is a great question okay

1422
00:52:11,990 --> 00:52:10,480
and this gets to my case-by-case basis

1423
00:52:14,150 --> 00:52:12,000
so if we look at

1424
00:52:17,270 --> 00:52:14,160
so um i was asked this

1425
00:52:18,870 --> 00:52:17,280
just recently on camera and so they were

1426
00:52:20,790 --> 00:52:18,880
trying to get me to say yes you know

1427
00:52:22,309 --> 00:52:20,800
kind of like an a scholarly ancient

1428
00:52:25,589 --> 00:52:22,319
aliens

1429
00:52:28,549 --> 00:52:25,599
thing sure but that's not how i see it i

1430
00:52:30,870 --> 00:52:28,559
see it case by case so if you take the

1431
00:52:33,750 --> 00:52:30,880
scriptural passage that says jesus is

1432
00:52:35,430 --> 00:52:33,760
coming on the clouds okay um

1433
00:52:36,470 --> 00:52:35,440
that's actually just based off of

1434
00:52:39,750 --> 00:52:36,480
something

1435
00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:39,760
in the bible okay um

1436
00:52:43,430 --> 00:52:41,520
we there's no

1437
00:52:45,270 --> 00:52:43,440
you know there's no kind of um idea

1438
00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:45,280
there that we can say well that's ufos

1439
00:52:49,910 --> 00:52:47,520
or something like that but if you go to

1440
00:52:53,030 --> 00:52:49,920
like teresa of avila who had an

1441
00:52:55,750 --> 00:52:53,040
experience of something that was short

1442
00:52:57,990 --> 00:52:55,760
like a being that was short and like all

1443
00:53:01,750 --> 00:52:58,000
on fire and that held a dart-like

1444
00:53:03,589 --> 00:53:01,760
instrument and used it on her um

1445
00:53:05,589 --> 00:53:03,599
she couldn't decide what kind of angel

1446
00:53:07,750 --> 00:53:05,599
that was she couldn't even categorize it

1447
00:53:09,990 --> 00:53:07,760
and she finally said it must be a cherub

1448
00:53:11,829 --> 00:53:10,000
right but she didn't know so if you look

1449
00:53:13,670 --> 00:53:11,839
at the original sources for that they're

1450
00:53:14,870 --> 00:53:13,680
weird and i would say that case

1451
00:53:17,030 --> 00:53:14,880
definitely

1452
00:53:19,750 --> 00:53:17,040
correlates to it could be in john mack's

1453
00:53:22,470 --> 00:53:19,760
book called abduction i mean that's how

1454
00:53:24,549 --> 00:53:22,480
that's how much the patterns correspond

1455
00:53:26,150 --> 00:53:24,559
so yes so do you see what i'm saying so

1456
00:53:29,109 --> 00:53:26,160
it's complicated it's more complicated

1457
00:53:31,349 --> 00:53:29,119
than just making this generalized idea

1458
00:53:32,710 --> 00:53:31,359
but i do believe it in certain cases

1459
00:53:34,230 --> 00:53:32,720
absolutely

1460
00:53:35,990 --> 00:53:34,240
yeah someone like myself who's got a

1461
00:53:38,470 --> 00:53:36,000
very high level understanding and

1462
00:53:40,470 --> 00:53:38,480
knowledge of for example the bible

1463
00:53:42,470 --> 00:53:40,480
i'm not well versed in it like someone

1464
00:53:43,829 --> 00:53:42,480
like yourself obviously so for me i

1465
00:53:46,150 --> 00:53:43,839
still don't look at the bible and go

1466
00:53:47,829 --> 00:53:46,160
aliens aliens aliens aliens right

1467
00:53:50,309 --> 00:53:47,839
magical man from the sky magical man

1468
00:53:51,910 --> 00:53:50,319
from the sky it's right it's obviously

1469
00:53:53,430 --> 00:53:51,920
those parables and stories and i know

1470
00:53:54,870 --> 00:53:53,440
it's changed over the years as well

1471
00:53:56,870 --> 00:53:54,880
which hopefully don't correct me on that

1472
00:53:59,109 --> 00:53:56,880
it has changed over time as well the the

1473
00:54:01,349 --> 00:53:59,119
bible and interpretations and and

1474
00:54:03,510 --> 00:54:01,359
whatnot but there are aspects of it like

1475
00:54:04,630 --> 00:54:03,520
you say that potentially

1476
00:54:06,390 --> 00:54:04,640
it could be

1477
00:54:08,470 --> 00:54:06,400
it was it was an alien being an alien

1478
00:54:10,790 --> 00:54:08,480
ray sailing entity or

1479
00:54:13,190 --> 00:54:10,800
something that was categorized in

1480
00:54:15,270 --> 00:54:13,200
as an angel or a demon and what we're

1481
00:54:16,870 --> 00:54:15,280
seeing still is the effect of that from

1482
00:54:18,309 --> 00:54:16,880
from people in high ranking government

1483
00:54:20,470 --> 00:54:18,319
positions that

1484
00:54:22,150 --> 00:54:20,480
it's holding back their own

1485
00:54:23,430 --> 00:54:22,160
their own potential progress within the

1486
00:54:25,030 --> 00:54:23,440
subject

1487
00:54:26,390 --> 00:54:25,040
why do you think though

1488
00:54:28,470 --> 00:54:26,400
this is all happening now you've

1489
00:54:31,270 --> 00:54:28,480
mentioned the last four years you had

1490
00:54:32,710 --> 00:54:31,280
started your research before 2017 when

1491
00:54:33,510 --> 00:54:32,720
the new york times article came out

1492
00:54:35,030 --> 00:54:33,520
which

1493
00:54:36,789 --> 00:54:35,040
must have been incredible for you to be

1494
00:54:38,470 --> 00:54:36,799
in the middle of what you were doing or

1495
00:54:40,390 --> 00:54:38,480
towards the end of it

1496
00:54:42,390 --> 00:54:40,400
do you think the phenomenon itself could

1497
00:54:43,190 --> 00:54:42,400
be influencing disclosure as some may

1498
00:54:48,150 --> 00:54:43,200
think

1499
00:54:50,150 --> 00:54:48,160
in its base that it started with louis

1500
00:54:52,789 --> 00:54:50,160
elizondo resigning and and people kind

1501
00:54:54,789 --> 00:54:52,799
of pushing forward like yourself

1502
00:54:57,430 --> 00:54:54,799
yeah so this is a great question again

1503
00:54:59,990 --> 00:54:57,440
i'll be trying to tackle this one in the

1504
00:55:02,630 --> 00:55:00,000
talk um i hope i can do it justice this

1505
00:55:04,829 --> 00:55:02,640
is the idea though is that there are i

1506
00:55:06,870 --> 00:55:04,839
think there is a parallel

1507
00:55:09,430 --> 00:55:06,880
development um

1508
00:55:11,910 --> 00:55:09,440
from my perspective i can see it and

1509
00:55:14,390 --> 00:55:11,920
this is what it looks like it looks like

1510
00:55:17,349 --> 00:55:14,400
um one that

1511
00:55:19,030 --> 00:55:17,359
goes along with media because you know

1512
00:55:22,309 --> 00:55:19,040
um

1513
00:55:24,309 --> 00:55:22,319
after when the government disclosure you

1514
00:55:26,230 --> 00:55:24,319
know the report the pentagon report was

1515
00:55:28,150 --> 00:55:26,240
coming out about a year a year and a

1516
00:55:29,990 --> 00:55:28,160
half before that i started to get

1517
00:55:32,789 --> 00:55:30,000
inundated with

1518
00:55:35,349 --> 00:55:32,799
reporters calling me from major media

1519
00:55:37,670 --> 00:55:35,359
sources like the new yorker the atlantic

1520
00:55:39,910 --> 00:55:37,680
and things like that and they all said

1521
00:55:41,670 --> 00:55:39,920
that they had a mandate to talk about

1522
00:55:43,349 --> 00:55:41,680
this topic and to write about it and i

1523
00:55:45,190 --> 00:55:43,359
thought that was weird i was like wow

1524
00:55:46,870 --> 00:55:45,200
you know who's telling them to do this

1525
00:55:48,630 --> 00:55:46,880
so i asked them i see you know a couple

1526
00:55:50,789 --> 00:55:48,640
of them after i figured it out i said

1527
00:55:52,069 --> 00:55:50,799
why is this happening and they said we

1528
00:55:53,349 --> 00:55:52,079
don't know you know there's something

1529
00:55:55,349 --> 00:55:53,359
that's going to happen

1530
00:55:58,150 --> 00:55:55,359
and i don't that one of them told me i

1531
00:55:59,990 --> 00:55:58,160
don't really want to talk about ufos but

1532
00:56:02,549 --> 00:56:00,000
i'm going to because this is my job

1533
00:56:04,470 --> 00:56:02,559
basically so i so there's that track it

1534
00:56:07,349 --> 00:56:04,480
looks coordinated

1535
00:56:09,349 --> 00:56:07,359
okay and then there's the random stuff

1536
00:56:11,510 --> 00:56:09,359
like with me and my book and things like

1537
00:56:13,349 --> 00:56:11,520
that you know gary nolan even okay so

1538
00:56:15,670 --> 00:56:13,359
that stuff is

1539
00:56:18,390 --> 00:56:15,680
seems to have a life of its own but

1540
00:56:20,950 --> 00:56:18,400
seems to be parallel to this other one

1541
00:56:23,430 --> 00:56:20,960
that's coordinated um i haven't figured

1542
00:56:25,589 --> 00:56:23,440
out the ins and outs of that i'm

1543
00:56:28,230 --> 00:56:25,599
actually going back doing research right

1544
00:56:31,670 --> 00:56:28,240
now in jacques vale's

1545
00:56:33,750 --> 00:56:31,680
i some of his ideas uh in the invisible

1546
00:56:36,630 --> 00:56:33,760
college because what he's doing is he's

1547
00:56:39,270 --> 00:56:36,640
harking back to a tradition that's an

1548
00:56:41,430 --> 00:56:39,280
esoteric tradition of events so you

1549
00:56:43,670 --> 00:56:41,440
don't look at things as

1550
00:56:46,309 --> 00:56:43,680
you know as moments in time but you look

1551
00:56:49,829 --> 00:56:46,319
at these events happening that seem to

1552
00:56:52,870 --> 00:56:49,839
have some type of coherency and that's

1553
00:56:54,630 --> 00:56:52,880
what i see going on and so you know he

1554
00:56:57,190 --> 00:56:54,640
talked about this and he talked about it

1555
00:56:59,430 --> 00:56:57,200
with reference to like synchronicity

1556
00:57:00,710 --> 00:56:59,440
um and i think something like that might

1557
00:57:03,030 --> 00:57:00,720
be happening and i think that the

1558
00:57:04,950 --> 00:57:03,040
coordinated effort i honestly don't know

1559
00:57:06,069 --> 00:57:04,960
why that's happening at this moment in

1560
00:57:10,069 --> 00:57:06,079
time

1561
00:57:12,150 --> 00:57:10,079
as you know our thing

1562
00:57:13,910 --> 00:57:12,160
sure you know i've got one more question

1563
00:57:15,750 --> 00:57:13,920
before listener questions and the first

1564
00:57:17,589 --> 00:57:15,760
listener question starts off with the

1565
00:57:18,950 --> 00:57:17,599
term synchronicity is often used so

1566
00:57:20,309 --> 00:57:18,960
we'll get to that in just a second as

1567
00:57:23,270 --> 00:57:20,319
you mentioned a nice little

1568
00:57:25,670 --> 00:57:23,280
synchronicity in it in itself um so last

1569
00:57:27,910 --> 00:57:25,680
one for myself though uh diana do you

1570
00:57:30,549 --> 00:57:27,920
think the new uap office can solve the

1571
00:57:32,470 --> 00:57:30,559
puzzle or does this need a wider remit

1572
00:57:34,870 --> 00:57:32,480
to include the high strangeness aspects

1573
00:57:38,069 --> 00:57:34,880
of the phenomenon

1574
00:57:41,510 --> 00:57:38,079
okay so i think that i think that

1575
00:57:44,309 --> 00:57:41,520
this puzzle is going to be solved

1576
00:57:50,870 --> 00:57:47,829
in its own time and in its own way okay

1577
00:57:52,549 --> 00:57:50,880
so what that means is that like i was

1578
00:57:54,630 --> 00:57:52,559
i was talking about valet's

1579
00:57:55,829 --> 00:57:54,640
understanding of the way that things

1580
00:57:59,349 --> 00:57:55,839
happen

1581
00:58:02,950 --> 00:57:59,359
i just i just can't see that we can

1582
00:58:05,510 --> 00:58:02,960
force this to happen i think that

1583
00:58:06,950 --> 00:58:05,520
i think that there will be

1584
00:58:08,950 --> 00:58:06,960
um

1585
00:58:11,190 --> 00:58:08,960
i think it's going to be a process uh

1586
00:58:12,710 --> 00:58:11,200
stephen dick is a the nasa historian

1587
00:58:16,309 --> 00:58:12,720
he's been a nasa historian for a long

1588
00:58:17,750 --> 00:58:16,319
time um he's part of uh astrobiology um

1589
00:58:19,829 --> 00:58:17,760
he's been doing work like this for a

1590
00:58:21,589 --> 00:58:19,839
long time totally quietly like he

1591
00:58:23,030 --> 00:58:21,599
doesn't really have any press releases

1592
00:58:24,789 --> 00:58:23,040
or anything like that but he's one of

1593
00:58:27,030 --> 00:58:24,799
the most interesting people

1594
00:58:28,789 --> 00:58:27,040
um if you read his work

1595
00:58:30,710 --> 00:58:28,799
he's one of the ones that influenced

1596
00:58:33,030 --> 00:58:30,720
people from a long time ago to think

1597
00:58:34,870 --> 00:58:33,040
about this not not necessarily jacques

1598
00:58:36,870 --> 00:58:34,880
valet but to think about this in terms

1599
00:58:39,589 --> 00:58:36,880
of technology because he said

1600
00:58:40,950 --> 00:58:39,599
you know when you know think about it

1601
00:58:42,230 --> 00:58:40,960
when it happens

1602
00:58:44,630 --> 00:58:42,240
we're going to be meeting their

1603
00:58:46,549 --> 00:58:44,640
technology just as you know just as we

1604
00:58:47,349 --> 00:58:46,559
send our technology out

1605
00:58:49,430 --> 00:58:47,359
and

1606
00:58:51,589 --> 00:58:49,440
so you know he's kind of innovative in

1607
00:58:53,910 --> 00:58:51,599
that way

1608
00:58:56,630 --> 00:58:53,920
but he basically said this he said that

1609
00:58:58,549 --> 00:58:56,640
the process of disclosure is a year's

1610
00:59:00,150 --> 00:58:58,559
long process it just doesn't happen

1611
00:59:01,670 --> 00:59:00,160
overnight

1612
00:59:03,270 --> 00:59:01,680
it certainly doesn't now let's get to

1613
00:59:05,030 --> 00:59:03,280
some of those listener questions there

1614
00:59:06,950 --> 00:59:05,040
was a lot of them sent in so hopefully

1615
00:59:08,230 --> 00:59:06,960
i've picked uh some of some really great

1616
00:59:09,910 --> 00:59:08,240
ones and i had to leave out some really

1617
00:59:11,750 --> 00:59:09,920
good ones too so apologies if yours

1618
00:59:13,430 --> 00:59:11,760
isn't in here this time but i'm sure

1619
00:59:15,430 --> 00:59:13,440
diana will come back on in the future

1620
00:59:17,030 --> 00:59:15,440
especially when that new book so

1621
00:59:18,789 --> 00:59:17,040
tim staley he says the term

1622
00:59:21,430 --> 00:59:18,799
synchronicity is often used by

1623
00:59:23,910 --> 00:59:21,440
individuals within the ufo community to

1624
00:59:25,589 --> 00:59:23,920
describe recognizable patterns of

1625
00:59:27,109 --> 00:59:25,599
intuition that connect events and

1626
00:59:29,670 --> 00:59:27,119
knowledge relating to their

1627
00:59:31,670 --> 00:59:29,680
understanding of the phenomenon how has

1628
00:59:34,069 --> 00:59:31,680
your definition or interpretation of

1629
00:59:36,069 --> 00:59:34,079
synchronicities changed since immersing

1630
00:59:38,309 --> 00:59:36,079
yourself in ufo culture and publishing

1631
00:59:40,470 --> 00:59:38,319
american cosmic

1632
00:59:42,390 --> 00:59:40,480
yeah this is such a great question

1633
00:59:44,230 --> 00:59:42,400
so

1634
00:59:45,990 --> 00:59:44,240
i mean

1635
00:59:47,990 --> 00:59:46,000
i wrote about synchronicity american

1636
00:59:49,510 --> 00:59:48,000
cosmic um i've talked about some of the

1637
00:59:52,390 --> 00:59:49,520
things that happened to me with respect

1638
00:59:54,630 --> 00:59:52,400
to synchronicity and i have to say that

1639
00:59:57,670 --> 00:59:54,640
it's much much more interesting to me

1640
00:59:59,829 --> 00:59:57,680
than it ever was ever in my life because

1641
01:00:02,390 --> 00:59:59,839
i'm beginning to understand it as almost

1642
01:00:04,470 --> 01:00:02,400
like a force of its own

1643
01:00:05,910 --> 01:00:04,480
and like i said in the previous answer

1644
01:00:07,589 --> 01:00:05,920
to your question

1645
01:00:09,750 --> 01:00:07,599
um is that

1646
01:00:12,390 --> 01:00:09,760
you know jacques back in the day and

1647
01:00:14,710 --> 01:00:12,400
even today you know still grapples with

1648
01:00:17,109 --> 01:00:14,720
with this idea of synchronicity and ties

1649
01:00:18,549 --> 01:00:17,119
it into this invisible college which is

1650
01:00:22,309 --> 01:00:18,559
an early modern

1651
01:00:24,470 --> 01:00:22,319
um idea of raw secretionism actually

1652
01:00:27,510 --> 01:00:24,480
um so it's an esoteric

1653
01:00:29,030 --> 01:00:27,520
understanding of

1654
01:00:35,270 --> 01:00:29,040
space time

1655
01:00:37,270 --> 01:00:35,280
experience

1656
01:00:38,789 --> 01:00:37,280
so i'm going to talk about dimensions so

1657
01:00:41,750 --> 01:00:38,799
we experience

1658
01:00:42,789 --> 01:00:41,760
time in a linear fashion it looks to us

1659
01:00:48,789 --> 01:00:42,799
linear

1660
01:00:51,589 --> 01:00:48,799
physicists tell us that it's not okay so

1661
01:00:53,109 --> 01:00:51,599
it is something that is be so we only

1662
01:00:55,910 --> 01:00:53,119
see a portion of it

1663
01:00:57,750 --> 01:00:55,920
um we only see what we can see of it so

1664
01:01:00,069 --> 01:00:57,760
i think that synchronicity is something

1665
01:01:03,109 --> 01:01:00,079
very similar to this and that those

1666
01:01:06,390 --> 01:01:03,119
people who experience it they're they're

1667
01:01:08,470 --> 01:01:06,400
experiencing things that are not in

1668
01:01:10,390 --> 01:01:08,480
within this dimension that's what now am

1669
01:01:12,710 --> 01:01:10,400
i going to do a peer-reviewed

1670
01:01:14,230 --> 01:01:12,720
you know uh no i'm not going to because

1671
01:01:16,309 --> 01:01:14,240
like you know people will say this

1672
01:01:18,789 --> 01:01:16,319
sounds pretty crazy but can i speculate

1673
01:01:20,309 --> 01:01:18,799
about it absolutely

1674
01:01:22,390 --> 01:01:20,319
a good answer yeah

1675
01:01:23,829 --> 01:01:22,400
tim from washington another tim said

1676
01:01:26,870 --> 01:01:23,839
what are your thoughts about chris

1677
01:01:30,549 --> 01:01:26,880
bledsoe's experiences and who do who and

1678
01:01:34,630 --> 01:01:33,190
i okay so um with chris blitz who

1679
01:01:36,470 --> 01:01:34,640
actually

1680
01:01:39,190 --> 01:01:36,480
i don't publicly talk about those

1681
01:01:40,950 --> 01:01:39,200
experiences

1682
01:01:41,910 --> 01:01:40,960
we can just leave that one there then

1683
01:01:43,670 --> 01:01:41,920
sorry

1684
01:01:47,109 --> 01:01:43,680
no that's okay

1685
01:01:48,950 --> 01:01:47,119
is it something though i i've spoken to

1686
01:01:50,390 --> 01:01:48,960
chase klitsky who's spent a lot of time

1687
01:01:51,829 --> 01:01:50,400
in the bledsoes as well and there's some

1688
01:01:53,750 --> 01:01:51,839
things chase will talk about and others

1689
01:01:58,390 --> 01:01:53,760
she won't is it something you can never

1690
01:02:03,670 --> 01:02:00,630
yes i mean i think that the blood i

1691
01:02:07,109 --> 01:02:03,680
think that his case is something that is

1692
01:02:09,589 --> 01:02:07,119
um paradigmatic in terms of what happens

1693
01:02:11,670 --> 01:02:09,599
to people who have these experiences and

1694
01:02:12,789 --> 01:02:11,680
then how they get

1695
01:02:14,549 --> 01:02:12,799
um

1696
01:02:17,029 --> 01:02:14,559
what would you call it

1697
01:02:19,750 --> 01:02:17,039
those alphabet agencies just descend and

1698
01:02:21,029 --> 01:02:19,760
then mess everything up and it's kind of

1699
01:02:22,789 --> 01:02:21,039
tragic

1700
01:02:24,710 --> 01:02:22,799
well that is actually almost word for

1701
01:02:26,549 --> 01:02:24,720
word the next question to touch on from

1702
01:02:28,549 --> 01:02:26,559
dave why do you think so many

1703
01:02:30,950 --> 01:02:28,559
intelligence people or intelligence

1704
01:02:32,630 --> 01:02:30,960
agencies are attracted to the bledsoes

1705
01:02:35,589 --> 01:02:32,640
and the potential phenomenon going on

1706
01:02:41,589 --> 01:02:35,599
there

1707
01:02:44,710 --> 01:02:43,270
for the same reason that they were

1708
01:02:46,069 --> 01:02:44,720
attracted to

1709
01:02:48,549 --> 01:02:46,079
benefits

1710
01:02:50,150 --> 01:02:48,559
remember that case the mirage men case

1711
01:02:52,470 --> 01:02:50,160
yeah um

1712
01:02:53,829 --> 01:02:52,480
because they're able to

1713
01:02:55,430 --> 01:02:53,839
use that

1714
01:02:58,069 --> 01:02:55,440
and um

1715
01:03:01,029 --> 01:02:58,079
they you know that

1716
01:03:02,630 --> 01:03:01,039
you know what happened was that a lot of

1717
01:03:05,510 --> 01:03:02,640
um like

1718
01:03:06,870 --> 01:03:05,520
alan hinek you know uh and a couple of

1719
01:03:09,109 --> 01:03:06,880
other people put

1720
01:03:10,789 --> 01:03:09,119
misinformation on his computer that kind

1721
01:03:14,150 --> 01:03:10,799
of sent he was already in a fragile

1722
01:03:15,589 --> 01:03:14,160
state of mind and sent him over the edge

1723
01:03:17,510 --> 01:03:15,599
doing that

1724
01:03:18,390 --> 01:03:17,520
sends a message

1725
01:03:19,910 --> 01:03:18,400
that

1726
01:03:23,270 --> 01:03:19,920
you know you asked about the stigma of

1727
01:03:25,589 --> 01:03:23,280
ufology it basically turns anyone off to

1728
01:03:29,190 --> 01:03:25,599
studying ufos because they're like oh

1729
01:03:31,349 --> 01:03:29,200
these people are legitimately crazy um

1730
01:03:34,069 --> 01:03:31,359
and they you know they were helped into

1731
01:03:35,190 --> 01:03:34,079
their craziness through the efforts of

1732
01:03:38,630 --> 01:03:35,200
these people

1733
01:03:40,069 --> 01:03:38,640
whose ethics i question basically um

1734
01:03:41,990 --> 01:03:40,079
this isn't something i would do to

1735
01:03:44,710 --> 01:03:42,000
somebody

1736
01:03:46,870 --> 01:03:44,720
so that's why i think that yeah i don't

1737
01:03:49,510 --> 01:03:46,880
think it you know go ahead i'm sorry no

1738
01:03:51,829 --> 01:03:49,520
no please sorry to interrupt to go on

1739
01:03:54,150 --> 01:03:51,839
yeah so i mean that's why i mean we have

1740
01:03:57,990 --> 01:03:54,160
to you know there are nefarious

1741
01:04:00,309 --> 01:03:58,000
bad actors in this field and i think

1742
01:04:02,630 --> 01:04:00,319
that that's something that's true and

1743
01:04:04,230 --> 01:04:02,640
has to be acknowledged

1744
01:04:05,829 --> 01:04:04,240
and and you've obviously had your own

1745
01:04:07,270 --> 01:04:05,839
experiences with the bledsoes like you

1746
01:04:10,309 --> 01:04:07,280
say in respect you don't want to talk

1747
01:04:12,069 --> 01:04:10,319
about those chris bledsoe and his family

1748
01:04:14,309 --> 01:04:12,079
ryan's obviously got his own podcast now

1749
01:04:15,910 --> 01:04:14,319
bledsoe said so i've interviewed ryan

1750
01:04:19,190 --> 01:04:15,920
and been in touch with them it's a great

1751
01:04:21,109 --> 01:04:19,200
name isn't it yeah it is chris isn't shy

1752
01:04:22,789 --> 01:04:21,119
in sharing a lot of what goes on in the

1753
01:04:25,510 --> 01:04:22,799
property

1754
01:04:26,470 --> 01:04:25,520
why do you think someone like chris

1755
01:04:28,710 --> 01:04:26,480
who

1756
01:04:30,950 --> 01:04:28,720
has all these incredible experiences and

1757
01:04:32,230 --> 01:04:30,960
i talked about ryan as well and and ryan

1758
01:04:33,829 --> 01:04:32,240
shared quite a lot of those on his own

1759
01:04:36,150 --> 01:04:33,839
show and on others

1760
01:04:38,069 --> 01:04:36,160
he puts all these videos on facebook

1761
01:04:39,990 --> 01:04:38,079
and is it because they're still quite

1762
01:04:41,750 --> 01:04:40,000
vague and generic in nature that he is

1763
01:04:44,549 --> 01:04:41,760
allowed to do this

1764
01:04:46,390 --> 01:04:44,559
when he's clearly had so much contact

1765
01:04:48,309 --> 01:04:46,400
throughout his life with these with

1766
01:04:51,670 --> 01:04:48,319
these agencies why don't they just stop

1767
01:04:55,829 --> 01:04:53,349
um

1768
01:04:57,670 --> 01:04:55,839
i think that they're okay with with it i

1769
01:05:01,029 --> 01:04:57,680
think that if they wanted to stop it

1770
01:05:04,789 --> 01:05:02,870
and again would you put that down to the

1771
01:05:06,630 --> 01:05:04,799
the vagueness of the videos because he i

1772
01:05:09,270 --> 01:05:06,640
i asked ryan let you know chris bledsoe

1773
01:05:11,190 --> 01:05:09,280
posts a lot of um orb videos and i've

1774
01:05:12,390 --> 01:05:11,200
said before on the podcast i i don't

1775
01:05:14,309 --> 01:05:12,400
discount the

1776
01:05:15,990 --> 01:05:14,319
the the idea that orbs are out there in

1777
01:05:17,750 --> 01:05:16,000
various shapes and forms it's a

1778
01:05:19,430 --> 01:05:17,760
fascinating subject but

1779
01:05:21,430 --> 01:05:19,440
so much of the

1780
01:05:23,670 --> 01:05:21,440
the video quality not just from the

1781
01:05:25,750 --> 01:05:23,680
bledsoes but from from anywhere

1782
01:05:27,829 --> 01:05:25,760
it could just be dust it looks like a

1783
01:05:29,430 --> 01:05:27,839
light and it's very hard to distinguish

1784
01:05:31,829 --> 01:05:29,440
you know and i want everything to be a

1785
01:05:34,230 --> 01:05:31,839
ufo or an alien spaceship or a being or

1786
01:05:36,390 --> 01:05:34,240
something but the fact is most of them

1787
01:05:37,829 --> 01:05:36,400
aren't and again is it that vagueness

1788
01:05:40,069 --> 01:05:37,839
that they allow those sorts of things to

1789
01:05:41,910 --> 01:05:40,079
be posted and i would imagine there

1790
01:05:43,750 --> 01:05:41,920
there would be much better quality

1791
01:05:46,309 --> 01:05:43,760
footage available from the blood so that

1792
01:05:47,589 --> 01:05:46,319
they don't let out

1793
01:05:52,069 --> 01:05:47,599
um

1794
01:05:54,069 --> 01:05:52,079
i don't know

1795
01:05:57,430 --> 01:05:54,079
i'm just gonna say that i don't talk

1796
01:05:58,950 --> 01:05:57,440
about that that case

1797
01:06:00,950 --> 01:05:58,960
sure well hopefully something we get to

1798
01:06:02,789 --> 01:06:00,960
hear a bit more from in future dave had

1799
01:06:04,950 --> 01:06:02,799
a follow-up though from the bledsoes he

1800
01:06:07,270 --> 01:06:04,960
asks what is the vatican's view of the

1801
01:06:09,029 --> 01:06:07,280
phenomenon and does diana think that

1802
01:06:11,109 --> 01:06:09,039
what they think uh

1803
01:06:13,510 --> 01:06:11,119
sorry and does diana think what they

1804
01:06:15,349 --> 01:06:13,520
have is a good understanding of the

1805
01:06:17,109 --> 01:06:15,359
phenomenon based on their records and

1806
01:06:19,349 --> 01:06:17,119
faith

1807
01:06:21,750 --> 01:06:19,359
okay so talking about what the vatican

1808
01:06:23,750 --> 01:06:21,760
thinks about it is like talking about

1809
01:06:25,829 --> 01:06:23,760
what does the us government think about

1810
01:06:28,230 --> 01:06:25,839
ufos so there are a lot of different

1811
01:06:30,950 --> 01:06:28,240
opinions okay a lot of people in the

1812
01:06:33,109 --> 01:06:30,960
vatican don't want they don't care

1813
01:06:35,430 --> 01:06:33,119
right in the hierarchy

1814
01:06:37,510 --> 01:06:35,440
some people don't want to talk about it

1815
01:06:38,950 --> 01:06:37,520
at all some people talk about it and say

1816
01:06:40,390 --> 01:06:38,960
you know um

1817
01:06:42,470 --> 01:06:40,400
that

1818
01:06:45,190 --> 01:06:42,480
it exists but we don't really know about

1819
01:06:46,470 --> 01:06:45,200
it some would look back on their records

1820
01:06:49,109 --> 01:06:46,480
and say

1821
01:06:51,109 --> 01:06:49,119
um yeah this looks like something that's

1822
01:06:52,789 --> 01:06:51,119
anomalous and some

1823
01:06:53,589 --> 01:06:52,799
totally discounted

1824
01:06:55,990 --> 01:06:53,599
so

1825
01:06:59,430 --> 01:06:56,000
there is no set

1826
01:07:01,910 --> 01:06:59,440
a dogma or statement with respect to

1827
01:07:02,950 --> 01:07:01,920
what the vatican thinks about it um

1828
01:07:04,870 --> 01:07:02,960
however

1829
01:07:07,270 --> 01:07:04,880
the vatican has

1830
01:07:08,870 --> 01:07:07,280
an association of catholic scientists

1831
01:07:11,270 --> 01:07:08,880
and every once in a while i think like

1832
01:07:13,910 --> 01:07:11,280
once a year they are they host a

1833
01:07:15,589 --> 01:07:13,920
conference on extraterrestrial uh you

1834
01:07:17,190 --> 01:07:15,599
know looking for extraterrestrial

1835
01:07:19,589 --> 01:07:17,200
civilizations and things like that they

1836
01:07:21,910 --> 01:07:19,599
have people from harvard and mit there

1837
01:07:23,829 --> 01:07:21,920
i've been invited there um

1838
01:07:26,870 --> 01:07:23,839
and so yeah they're completely open to

1839
01:07:28,870 --> 01:07:26,880
it um but is this like intelligent

1840
01:07:30,630 --> 01:07:28,880
extraterrestrial kind of like reptilians

1841
01:07:32,950 --> 01:07:30,640
that they're talking about no this would

1842
01:07:35,829 --> 01:07:32,960
be more like you know are there microbes

1843
01:07:37,990 --> 01:07:35,839
on this exoplanet uh sure yeah that you

1844
01:07:40,230 --> 01:07:38,000
know we could possibly you know utilize

1845
01:07:42,069 --> 01:07:40,240
this to when we ruin our own planet

1846
01:07:44,309 --> 01:07:42,079
something like that uh they work with

1847
01:07:46,789 --> 01:07:44,319
nasa you know and things like that so

1848
01:07:48,870 --> 01:07:46,799
they're definitely open to it um

1849
01:07:50,230 --> 01:07:48,880
and they're up on the research right so

1850
01:07:52,309 --> 01:07:50,240
a lot of people have been doing this

1851
01:07:54,309 --> 01:07:52,319
research for a very long time um but

1852
01:07:57,029 --> 01:07:54,319
they're not out they're not not the ones

1853
01:07:58,549 --> 01:07:57,039
that are out there making extreme claims

1854
01:08:00,470 --> 01:07:58,559
or

1855
01:08:01,510 --> 01:08:00,480
you know they're not like they're not

1856
01:08:03,349 --> 01:08:01,520
doing

1857
01:08:05,029 --> 01:08:03,359
um

1858
01:08:07,190 --> 01:08:05,039
they're just not

1859
01:08:09,109 --> 01:08:07,200
doing press releases every day or even

1860
01:08:12,230 --> 01:08:09,119
every week or ever

1861
01:08:14,470 --> 01:08:12,240
yeah sure um sebastian wants to know he

1862
01:08:16,309 --> 01:08:14,480
would be interested to know if you have

1863
01:08:19,749 --> 01:08:16,319
any other examples of saints and

1864
01:08:21,749 --> 01:08:19,759
christianity beside santa teresa de avia

1865
01:08:23,269 --> 01:08:21,759
which she mentions in her book that have

1866
01:08:24,390 --> 01:08:23,279
been rumored to be connected to the

1867
01:08:27,430 --> 01:08:24,400
phenomenon

1868
01:08:30,309 --> 01:08:27,440
and maybe more recent ones as well

1869
01:08:33,349 --> 01:08:30,319
yes it looks like a lot of them have so

1870
01:08:34,950 --> 01:08:33,359
um i have uh the trial records of joseph

1871
01:08:37,749 --> 01:08:34,960
of copertino

1872
01:08:41,110 --> 01:08:37,759
so he's an italian saint who has

1873
01:08:42,149 --> 01:08:41,120
levitated and has said to have levitated

1874
01:08:44,470 --> 01:08:42,159
um

1875
01:08:46,630 --> 01:08:44,480
so he's really interesting so sebastian

1876
01:08:49,829 --> 01:08:46,640
can look at into him

1877
01:08:52,309 --> 01:08:49,839
um you also have sister maria of agrada

1878
01:08:54,229 --> 01:08:52,319
she's spanish she's a contemporary of

1879
01:08:57,030 --> 01:08:54,239
joseph of cupertino i actually mentioned

1880
01:09:00,070 --> 01:08:57,040
her in my book american cosmic and she

1881
01:09:02,149 --> 01:09:00,080
wrote a call she lived in the 1600s and

1882
01:09:03,510 --> 01:09:02,159
she wrote a cosmology

1883
01:09:05,669 --> 01:09:03,520
um

1884
01:09:07,269 --> 01:09:05,679
of the world in the earth

1885
01:09:08,870 --> 01:09:07,279
that i mean she wrote this a long time

1886
01:09:10,390 --> 01:09:08,880
ago and she was basically talking about

1887
01:09:12,309 --> 01:09:10,400
the spinning earth so she could see it

1888
01:09:14,950 --> 01:09:12,319
from space because she believed that she

1889
01:09:17,269 --> 01:09:14,960
was elevated off earth

1890
01:09:19,910 --> 01:09:17,279
by on the wings of angels

1891
01:09:21,669 --> 01:09:19,920
and she also came to the united states

1892
01:09:24,470 --> 01:09:21,679
and was able to land in the united

1893
01:09:26,950 --> 01:09:24,480
states and talk about what she saw there

1894
01:09:29,910 --> 01:09:26,960
which looked pretty accurate um

1895
01:09:32,309 --> 01:09:29,920
and she's even known in new mexico and

1896
01:09:35,269 --> 01:09:32,319
arizona as the lady in blue

1897
01:09:37,110 --> 01:09:35,279
so there are a lot oh um and also uh

1898
01:09:40,229 --> 01:09:37,120
francis um

1899
01:09:42,709 --> 01:09:40,239
saint francis of assisi um he had a what

1900
01:09:46,390 --> 01:09:42,719
looks like a pretty intense aerial

1901
01:09:49,590 --> 01:09:46,400
phenomena experience that radiated him

1902
01:09:51,030 --> 01:09:49,600
and and gave him the stigmata what now

1903
01:09:52,550 --> 01:09:51,040
is called the stigmata that was the

1904
01:09:55,030 --> 01:09:52,560
first instance of it

1905
01:09:57,030 --> 01:09:55,040
um so yeah so there are a lot of uh

1906
01:09:58,229 --> 01:09:57,040
occurrences and not just the saints that

1907
01:10:00,550 --> 01:09:58,239
we know

1908
01:10:02,870 --> 01:10:00,560
there are you know literally

1909
01:10:04,070 --> 01:10:02,880
hundreds of thousands of records

1910
01:10:06,550 --> 01:10:04,080
if not more

1911
01:10:08,950 --> 01:10:06,560
that talk about aerial phenomena i mean

1912
01:10:09,910 --> 01:10:08,960
i just found some you know in randomly

1913
01:10:11,590 --> 01:10:09,920
in my

1914
01:10:14,070 --> 01:10:11,600
searches in purgatory before i ever

1915
01:10:15,669 --> 01:10:14,080
started this research so there are there

1916
01:10:17,830 --> 01:10:15,679
there you know the histories of

1917
01:10:20,470 --> 01:10:17,840
religions they're that's a rich

1918
01:10:22,149 --> 01:10:20,480
tradition for this information

1919
01:10:23,830 --> 01:10:22,159
now if anyone's listening thinking i

1920
01:10:26,070 --> 01:10:23,840
sent these questions over in advance to

1921
01:10:29,110 --> 01:10:26,080
diana i didn't um just given that the

1922
01:10:31,270 --> 01:10:29,120
next question is from jean francois uh

1923
01:10:33,590 --> 01:10:31,280
he says chris bledsoe said he received a

1924
01:10:35,750 --> 01:10:33,600
warning from the pope through diana can

1925
01:10:37,669 --> 01:10:35,760
you clarify and for context chris

1926
01:10:40,310 --> 01:10:37,679
bledsoe said the warning was about risks

1927
01:10:42,229 --> 01:10:40,320
associated with physical proximity to

1928
01:10:47,030 --> 01:10:42,239
the phenomenon he observed making a

1929
01:10:51,590 --> 01:10:48,630
yeah no that

1930
01:10:52,630 --> 01:10:51,600
okay no that did not happen um

1931
01:10:55,430 --> 01:10:52,640
however

1932
01:10:57,669 --> 01:10:55,440
through my research i definitely told

1933
01:11:00,709 --> 01:10:57,679
him that there are risks associated with

1934
01:11:01,750 --> 01:11:00,719
that and explained that from the

1935
01:11:03,590 --> 01:11:01,760
research

1936
01:11:06,470 --> 01:11:03,600
through people in the fight club that i

1937
01:11:08,470 --> 01:11:06,480
was doing um that research basically

1938
01:11:10,390 --> 01:11:08,480
showed that there were there's harm that

1939
01:11:12,870 --> 01:11:10,400
could be done and it could be burns from

1940
01:11:15,830 --> 01:11:12,880
radiation and so i was trying to tell

1941
01:11:17,990 --> 01:11:15,840
him be careful basically so it's from me

1942
01:11:20,070 --> 01:11:18,000
not the pope sure that's that's probably

1943
01:11:21,350 --> 01:11:20,080
quite a good thing to clear up um yeah

1944
01:11:22,470 --> 01:11:21,360
it's probably it's amazing how these

1945
01:11:23,910 --> 01:11:22,480
things can get down the kind of

1946
01:11:26,310 --> 01:11:23,920
grapevine but that's something we've

1947
01:11:28,310 --> 01:11:26,320
heard a lot about from dr colm kelleher

1948
01:11:30,149 --> 01:11:28,320
and george knapp james latatsky and

1949
01:11:32,390 --> 01:11:30,159
their book secrets to the skinwalker

1950
01:11:35,350 --> 01:11:32,400
hearing about you know 25 of patients

1951
01:11:38,070 --> 01:11:35,360
involved in one case study had died from

1952
01:11:39,830 --> 01:11:38,080
from um you know whatever they picked up

1953
01:11:41,430 --> 01:11:39,840
from a close contact with the phenomenon

1954
01:11:43,270 --> 01:11:41,440
potentially so yeah we're hearing more

1955
01:11:44,870 --> 01:11:43,280
about that now as well and

1956
01:11:46,550 --> 01:11:44,880
may or may not be directly linked but

1957
01:11:47,830 --> 01:11:46,560
havana syndrome is something that's been

1958
01:11:49,669 --> 01:11:47,840
in the news and there's just been a big

1959
01:11:51,189 --> 01:11:49,679
piece on 60 minutes about that as well

1960
01:11:52,790 --> 01:11:51,199
which i've i've not managed to catch

1961
01:11:55,350 --> 01:11:52,800
myself actually yet

1962
01:11:56,950 --> 01:11:55,360
um leonard wants to know do you know

1963
01:11:58,870 --> 01:11:56,960
anything more about the special room

1964
01:12:01,430 --> 01:11:58,880
which tyler spoke of where people felt a

1965
01:12:03,990 --> 01:12:01,440
kind of heightened creativity and came

1966
01:12:06,709 --> 01:12:04,000
closer to big ideas what was so special

1967
01:12:09,510 --> 01:12:06,719
with this room and how it's used

1968
01:12:11,990 --> 01:12:09,520
okay this is a cool room so this room

1969
01:12:14,310 --> 01:12:12,000
was set up with every kind of you know

1970
01:12:17,669 --> 01:12:14,320
technological toy that a person could

1971
01:12:19,830 --> 01:12:17,679
ever want to use to to create stuff

1972
01:12:21,590 --> 01:12:19,840
right and so the people that would be

1973
01:12:22,390 --> 01:12:21,600
put in the room would be people like

1974
01:12:24,950 --> 01:12:22,400
tyler

1975
01:12:26,870 --> 01:12:24,960
and they were told that they could

1976
01:12:28,950 --> 01:12:26,880
basically you know

1977
01:12:31,270 --> 01:12:28,960
we're so constrained by ourselves you

1978
01:12:32,790 --> 01:12:31,280
know in terms of what we can think

1979
01:12:35,270 --> 01:12:32,800
don't think that that's probably not

1980
01:12:37,189 --> 01:12:35,280
true that's crazy people often preface

1981
01:12:39,830 --> 01:12:37,199
what they say with oh i'd want to tell

1982
01:12:42,709 --> 01:12:39,840
you this but it sounds crazy okay

1983
01:12:45,270 --> 01:12:42,719
that word was not allowed in that room

1984
01:12:47,990 --> 01:12:45,280
all possibilities were considered in

1985
01:12:51,270 --> 01:12:48,000
that room so it was a room where people

1986
01:12:54,310 --> 01:12:51,280
were given license to be as crazy and

1987
01:12:55,750 --> 01:12:54,320
speculative as they could be and they

1988
01:12:57,830 --> 01:12:55,760
were and that's where amazing

1989
01:12:59,510 --> 01:12:57,840
technologies they came out of that room

1990
01:13:00,870 --> 01:12:59,520
because of those conversations that

1991
01:13:02,870 --> 01:13:00,880
happened there

1992
01:13:04,470 --> 01:13:02,880
awesome i've got three more listener

1993
01:13:05,590 --> 01:13:04,480
questions and then we can let diana get

1994
01:13:07,750 --> 01:13:05,600
on with the rest of our day you've been

1995
01:13:10,149 --> 01:13:07,760
amazing with your time and the first one

1996
01:13:12,470 --> 01:13:10,159
is from walker he asks an american

1997
01:13:14,149 --> 01:13:12,480
cosmic diana mentions john mack's term

1998
01:13:16,149 --> 01:13:14,159
ontological shock

1999
01:13:18,310 --> 01:13:16,159
did she experience any of that during

2000
01:13:20,709 --> 01:13:18,320
the investigation of the phenomenon for

2001
01:13:23,189 --> 01:13:20,719
the book or since and how did that

2002
01:13:25,750 --> 01:13:23,199
change you also has the phenomenon taken

2003
01:13:29,189 --> 01:13:25,760
an interest in and diana herself since

2004
01:13:33,910 --> 01:13:31,590
that's okay um

2005
01:13:36,790 --> 01:13:33,920
yeah i absolutely felt the ontological

2006
01:13:39,590 --> 01:13:36,800
shock i feel like it lasted a year

2007
01:13:42,630 --> 01:13:39,600
okay it was a very

2008
01:13:44,630 --> 01:13:42,640
very uncomfortable uncanny time

2009
01:13:46,709 --> 01:13:44,640
um in 2012

2010
01:13:48,790 --> 01:13:46,719
where i literally i was actually working

2011
01:13:49,590 --> 01:13:48,800
on the conjuring as a consultant at that

2012
01:13:52,390 --> 01:13:49,600
time

2013
01:13:53,590 --> 01:13:52,400
and i was um i was hanging out i guess

2014
01:13:55,910 --> 01:13:53,600
you could say with

2015
01:13:57,830 --> 01:13:55,920
the screenwriters chad hayes and carrie

2016
01:13:59,910 --> 01:13:57,840
hayes who knew

2017
01:14:01,350 --> 01:13:59,920
they could just tell that something was

2018
01:14:03,510 --> 01:14:01,360
really going on and so they really

2019
01:14:05,110 --> 01:14:03,520
wanted to know what's going on and so

2020
01:14:07,030 --> 01:14:05,120
at that time i introduced them to my

2021
01:14:09,430 --> 01:14:07,040
research and they they were also blown

2022
01:14:11,350 --> 01:14:09,440
away so i mean i think what happened at

2023
01:14:14,630 --> 01:14:11,360
the time was remember i hadn't

2024
01:14:15,430 --> 01:14:14,640
entertained the reality of ufos at all

2025
01:14:17,750 --> 01:14:15,440
and

2026
01:14:20,790 --> 01:14:17,760
when i considered what happened was this

2027
01:14:23,990 --> 01:14:20,800
was that i connected almost in an

2028
01:14:26,830 --> 01:14:24,000
instant i connected during that ufo

2029
01:14:29,750 --> 01:14:26,840
conference what these people had

2030
01:14:32,229 --> 01:14:29,760
experienced and what i had studied my

2031
01:14:33,990 --> 01:14:32,239
whole life so it was almost as if i

2032
01:14:35,590 --> 01:14:34,000
studied this my whole life and all of a

2033
01:14:37,110 --> 01:14:35,600
sudden somebody hit me in the head and

2034
01:14:39,510 --> 01:14:37,120
said this is it

2035
01:14:41,510 --> 01:14:39,520
and that was disconcerting and so yeah

2036
01:14:43,510 --> 01:14:41,520
that was my ontological shock and then

2037
01:14:45,590 --> 01:14:43,520
it just got bigger and bigger and bigger

2038
01:14:49,110 --> 01:14:45,600
because of the people that i met

2039
01:14:51,510 --> 01:14:49,120
um like tyler and james um

2040
01:14:55,350 --> 01:14:51,520
now known as gary

2041
01:14:57,270 --> 01:14:55,360
so yeah so does the phenomena take um

2042
01:15:00,470 --> 01:14:57,280
i think probably the phenomena if there

2043
01:15:02,149 --> 01:15:00,480
is a phenomena it absolutely has been

2044
01:15:04,709 --> 01:15:02,159
around people that have been thinking

2045
01:15:06,630 --> 01:15:04,719
about it their whole lives that's how i

2046
01:15:08,790 --> 01:15:06,640
view it i think so and that's not a

2047
01:15:10,870 --> 01:15:08,800
professor answer that's me that's an

2048
01:15:12,790 --> 01:15:10,880
answer that i'm giving that there the

2049
01:15:14,630 --> 01:15:12,800
synchronicity of it

2050
01:15:17,470 --> 01:15:14,640
and the things that happen

2051
01:15:23,270 --> 01:15:21,030
unimaginable and improbable that

2052
01:15:25,189 --> 01:15:23,280
i believe yeah

2053
01:15:26,950 --> 01:15:25,199
and we've heard the term and i've spoken

2054
01:15:29,669 --> 01:15:26,960
to luella's owned about it a few times

2055
01:15:31,270 --> 01:15:29,679
it's sticky portfolio and the hitchhiker

2056
01:15:33,430 --> 01:15:31,280
effect and people at george knapp have

2057
01:15:35,669 --> 01:15:33,440
talked about how his own wife

2058
01:15:37,430 --> 01:15:35,679
experienced things you know when he came

2059
01:15:39,669 --> 01:15:37,440
away from skinwalker ranch is that ever

2060
01:15:41,430 --> 01:15:39,679
something you've had any experience of

2061
01:15:42,630 --> 01:15:41,440
yourself

2062
01:15:44,390 --> 01:15:42,640
okay so

2063
01:15:47,030 --> 01:15:44,400
yes so i talked to gary about this as

2064
01:15:49,910 --> 01:15:47,040
well so he he's the first one who told

2065
01:15:51,590 --> 01:15:49,920
me about this um years ago and he said

2066
01:15:54,390 --> 01:15:51,600
you want to be careful about going to

2067
01:15:56,070 --> 01:15:54,400
the places where there is hot activity

2068
01:15:57,750 --> 01:15:56,080
because they're you know they'll come

2069
01:15:59,110 --> 01:15:57,760
they'll follow you home

2070
01:16:03,669 --> 01:15:59,120
um

2071
01:16:06,149 --> 01:16:03,679
so

2072
01:16:08,229 --> 01:16:06,159
i'm careful let's put it that way yes

2073
01:16:10,070 --> 01:16:08,239
very careful if somebody's trying to say

2074
01:16:13,270 --> 01:16:10,080
to me come out here you'll definitely

2075
01:16:15,430 --> 01:16:13,280
see this or that i won't go

2076
01:16:16,149 --> 01:16:15,440
i'd say why do you think i want to see

2077
01:16:23,910 --> 01:16:16,159
that

2078
01:16:25,350 --> 01:16:23,920
at things like exorcisms

2079
01:16:27,110 --> 01:16:25,360
and you wonder you know getting rid of

2080
01:16:28,470 --> 01:16:27,120
some entity that you don't want to be

2081
01:16:30,790 --> 01:16:28,480
there is that something you think would

2082
01:16:31,669 --> 01:16:30,800
ever play into or you would recommend to

2083
01:16:33,590 --> 01:16:31,679
people

2084
01:16:35,270 --> 01:16:33,600
and those types of situations that you

2085
01:16:37,669 --> 01:16:35,280
know have some sort of like religious

2086
01:16:39,750 --> 01:16:37,679
ceremony to get rid of any entities that

2087
01:16:42,229 --> 01:16:39,760
may be hanging around

2088
01:16:44,390 --> 01:16:42,239
okay so yeah i think that um i i

2089
01:16:47,110 --> 01:16:44,400
actually am practicing religious person

2090
01:16:49,750 --> 01:16:47,120
okay so i believe in i mean this is not

2091
01:16:51,430 --> 01:16:49,760
me as a professor talking but i am a you

2092
01:16:52,470 --> 01:16:51,440
know i am a practicing

2093
01:16:55,030 --> 01:16:52,480
catholic

2094
01:16:57,430 --> 01:16:55,040
and um

2095
01:16:59,030 --> 01:16:57,440
i think that that helps me here

2096
01:17:01,990 --> 01:16:59,040
um i think that

2097
01:17:04,470 --> 01:17:02,000
and i'm not being exclusive so i have a

2098
01:17:07,910 --> 01:17:04,480
friend who's a practicing

2099
01:17:10,550 --> 01:17:07,920
muslim and he also does this research

2100
01:17:13,430 --> 01:17:10,560
he's you know he believes in god and he

2101
01:17:16,390 --> 01:17:13,440
he feels the same way that i do so

2102
01:17:18,630 --> 01:17:16,400
i think that this is something that

2103
01:17:20,149 --> 01:17:18,640
people in the you know the kinds of

2104
01:17:22,229 --> 01:17:20,159
projects that are going now like in

2105
01:17:23,910 --> 01:17:22,239
avilob's project the galileo project and

2106
01:17:26,390 --> 01:17:23,920
things like that this is stuff they'll

2107
01:17:28,950 --> 01:17:26,400
never talk about because it's not

2108
01:17:31,030 --> 01:17:28,960
something that they would believe in but

2109
01:17:32,630 --> 01:17:31,040
if you do look at the experiences that

2110
01:17:36,310 --> 01:17:32,640
people have some are

2111
01:17:37,590 --> 01:17:36,320
frightening right and do you think that

2112
01:17:39,030 --> 01:17:37,600
do you think that an eight how do you

2113
01:17:40,550 --> 01:17:39,040
think an atheist is gonna feel about

2114
01:17:44,310 --> 01:17:40,560
these kinds of things you know they're

2115
01:17:47,030 --> 01:17:44,320
gonna they're not gonna like it so um

2116
01:17:49,110 --> 01:17:47,040
yeah i think that i think that this

2117
01:17:51,189 --> 01:17:49,120
this is part of the consciousness part

2118
01:17:53,430 --> 01:17:51,199
of it that i think people are you know

2119
01:17:56,229 --> 01:17:53,440
they could they come from a materialist

2120
01:17:57,669 --> 01:17:56,239
point they study it like let's take

2121
01:17:59,910 --> 01:17:57,679
bigelow and then all of a sudden they

2122
01:18:02,149 --> 01:17:59,920
get to consciousness well that's a

2123
01:18:03,990 --> 01:18:02,159
trajectory that's like you know that's

2124
01:18:06,870 --> 01:18:04,000
not a coincidence that's something that

2125
01:18:08,709 --> 01:18:06,880
i think is part of the whole question of

2126
01:18:10,310 --> 01:18:08,719
these things definitely

2127
01:18:11,590 --> 01:18:10,320
it certainly seems like a stop along the

2128
01:18:14,070 --> 01:18:11,600
way on the journey doesn't it that you

2129
01:18:16,550 --> 01:18:14,080
you advance to that next question and

2130
01:18:18,630 --> 01:18:16,560
final question from brendan has diana

2131
01:18:20,630 --> 01:18:18,640
any opinion on the current time travel

2132
01:18:22,709 --> 01:18:20,640
narrative that's being pushed seemingly

2133
01:18:24,070 --> 01:18:22,719
everywhere something that especially in

2134
01:18:25,750 --> 01:18:24,080
some interviews i've done with ross

2135
01:18:27,669 --> 01:18:25,760
coulthart frank melbourne and michael

2136
01:18:30,870 --> 01:18:27,679
masters people have talked about you

2137
01:18:32,229 --> 01:18:30,880
know potential future as future humans

2138
01:18:34,229 --> 01:18:32,239
and things like that have you got any

2139
01:18:36,470 --> 01:18:34,239
opinion on that diana

2140
01:18:38,709 --> 01:18:36,480
right yeah so um i've been hearing about

2141
01:18:41,350 --> 01:18:38,719
this for a long time and

2142
01:18:43,990 --> 01:18:41,360
now it's something that's out there um i

2143
01:18:46,149 --> 01:18:44,000
think this about it i think that that a

2144
01:18:48,550 --> 01:18:46,159
lot of work has been done especially by

2145
01:18:50,390 --> 01:18:48,560
people like eric largo

2146
01:18:53,270 --> 01:18:50,400
whose work is really interesting where

2147
01:18:56,709 --> 01:18:53,280
he basically says that we have some

2148
01:18:59,350 --> 01:18:56,719
inkling of the future and how do we get

2149
01:19:01,590 --> 01:18:59,360
that information um so he's you know a

2150
01:19:03,590 --> 01:19:01,600
lot of people use the framework of we

2151
01:19:05,590 --> 01:19:03,600
time travel this information you know we

2152
01:19:06,630 --> 01:19:05,600
get this information from the future

2153
01:19:08,310 --> 01:19:06,640
a lot of people that believe they

2154
01:19:10,070 --> 01:19:08,320
manifest stuff so there are people

2155
01:19:12,709 --> 01:19:10,080
who've had these experiences this would

2156
01:19:15,510 --> 01:19:12,719
be under the rubric of post contact

2157
01:19:17,189 --> 01:19:15,520
effects where they have a contact and

2158
01:19:19,030 --> 01:19:17,199
also they feel like they can manifest

2159
01:19:20,470 --> 01:19:19,040
stuff like they'll think blueberries and

2160
01:19:21,990 --> 01:19:20,480
also blueberries you know will show up

2161
01:19:24,310 --> 01:19:22,000
at their door people hey i got these

2162
01:19:26,149 --> 01:19:24,320
blueberries for you well what's really

2163
01:19:30,709 --> 01:19:26,159
according to like someone like eric

2164
01:19:32,950 --> 01:19:30,719
vargo's um framework would be that

2165
01:19:35,910 --> 01:19:32,960
and this actually is is portrayed well

2166
01:19:38,149 --> 01:19:35,920
in a rival the movie arrival where the

2167
01:19:40,470 --> 01:19:38,159
this woman who's a professor of you know

2168
01:19:42,390 --> 01:19:40,480
she's a linguist she has contact with

2169
01:19:43,750 --> 01:19:42,400
these beings these extraterrestrial

2170
01:19:45,669 --> 01:19:43,760
beings and then all of a sudden her

2171
01:19:47,669 --> 01:19:45,679
whole sense of time shifts and she's

2172
01:19:49,110 --> 01:19:47,679
able to tell the future in the past you

2173
01:19:50,470 --> 01:19:49,120
know time becomes something completely

2174
01:19:52,470 --> 01:19:50,480
different for her well this is a

2175
01:19:54,310 --> 01:19:52,480
post-contact effect a lot of people have

2176
01:19:56,149 --> 01:19:54,320
this when they have contact and they

2177
01:19:58,950 --> 01:19:56,159
feel like they're manifesting somebody

2178
01:19:59,750 --> 01:19:58,960
something but eric wago would basically

2179
01:20:02,550 --> 01:19:59,760
say

2180
01:20:04,149 --> 01:20:02,560
no they just know on some level that

2181
01:20:05,669 --> 01:20:04,159
that you know in their future they're

2182
01:20:07,830 --> 01:20:05,679
going to experience that they think

2183
01:20:09,830 --> 01:20:07,840
they're manifesting it but it really is

2184
01:20:11,189 --> 01:20:09,840
just they've gone through time and all

2185
01:20:13,830 --> 01:20:11,199
of a sudden there it there it is and

2186
01:20:16,709 --> 01:20:13,840
they somehow saw it beforehand so that's

2187
01:20:18,709 --> 01:20:16,719
going into the future taking information

2188
01:20:21,910 --> 01:20:18,719
from the future and informing the

2189
01:20:24,390 --> 01:20:21,920
present so that is a lot is that part of

2190
01:20:26,229 --> 01:20:24,400
the phenomena um that seems to be a

2191
01:20:28,790 --> 01:20:26,239
post-contact effect what do i think

2192
01:20:30,629 --> 01:20:28,800
about it um

2193
01:20:32,790 --> 01:20:30,639
it's fascinating i don't know what to

2194
01:20:35,030 --> 01:20:32,800
think about it and it lends a bit of

2195
01:20:36,870 --> 01:20:35,040
credence doesn't it to the idea that if

2196
01:20:39,430 --> 01:20:36,880
we experience time in the linear fashion

2197
01:20:41,669 --> 01:20:39,440
but time isn't linear and there are you

2198
01:20:43,990 --> 01:20:41,679
know hypothesis and theories that maybe

2199
01:20:46,470 --> 01:20:44,000
some of these objects or beings don't

2200
01:20:47,830 --> 01:20:46,480
experience timing the same way we do

2201
01:20:49,750 --> 01:20:47,840
and when louis elizondo was on the

2202
01:20:51,830 --> 01:20:49,760
podcast now it seems like a lifetime ago

2203
01:20:53,990 --> 01:20:51,840
he talked about a cigarette or a cigar

2204
01:20:56,470 --> 01:20:54,000
burning and that you know the the part

2205
01:20:58,229 --> 01:20:56,480
that's burned the ash that's the past

2206
01:21:00,310 --> 01:20:58,239
the the the part that's still to burn is

2207
01:21:01,830 --> 01:21:00,320
the future and he says we live in that

2208
01:21:04,310 --> 01:21:01,840
cherry that's burning at the moment but

2209
01:21:05,990 --> 01:21:04,320
if you zoom in on it that that cherry

2210
01:21:07,510 --> 01:21:06,000
isn't symmetrical all the way around

2211
01:21:09,189 --> 01:21:07,520
there's you know those overlaps and

2212
01:21:11,510 --> 01:21:09,199
burning and if something could

2213
01:21:13,510 --> 01:21:11,520
experience that whole portion of the

2214
01:21:14,870 --> 01:21:13,520
cherry at the same time then it could

2215
01:21:16,790 --> 01:21:14,880
potentially look like it was from the

2216
01:21:18,229 --> 01:21:16,800
future from the past and be existing in

2217
01:21:19,990 --> 01:21:18,239
different points all at once that we

2218
01:21:21,270 --> 01:21:20,000
just can't do so i've always thought

2219
01:21:24,149 --> 01:21:21,280
that was a pretty interesting way to

2220
01:21:25,430 --> 01:21:24,159
look at the future human hypothesis

2221
01:21:27,030 --> 01:21:25,440
fascinating

2222
01:21:28,709 --> 01:21:27,040
but listen diana you've been amazing

2223
01:21:30,390 --> 01:21:28,719
with your time and i'm just going to ask

2224
01:21:32,070 --> 01:21:30,400
you to hang on just for one moment when

2225
01:21:34,390 --> 01:21:32,080
i say goodbye to you just to say thanks

2226
01:21:36,070 --> 01:21:34,400
personally off air as well you mentioned

2227
01:21:37,990 --> 01:21:36,080
you mentioned the new book when can

2228
01:21:39,750 --> 01:21:38,000
people expect that from you no pressure

2229
01:21:43,750 --> 01:21:39,760
of course

2230
01:21:44,790 --> 01:21:43,760
yes so that should be out in late 2022

2231
01:21:48,310 --> 01:21:44,800
um

2232
01:21:49,750 --> 01:21:48,320
2022 or early 2023

2233
01:21:52,310 --> 01:21:49,760
excellent i look forward to that and how

2234
01:21:54,709 --> 01:21:52,320
can people follow you on the socials

2235
01:21:56,149 --> 01:21:54,719
i'm on twitter at this moment

2236
01:21:59,750 --> 01:21:56,159
and i'll put the links for the

2237
01:22:01,270 --> 01:21:59,760
description it's dw posilka i believe

2238
01:22:02,790 --> 01:22:01,280
the twitter handle i'll pop that in

2239
01:22:04,709 --> 01:22:02,800
there of course the links to american

2240
01:22:06,070 --> 01:22:04,719
cosmic if you haven't read it go out and

2241
01:22:07,750 --> 01:22:06,080
read it i'll put the links to buy it in

2242
01:22:09,590 --> 01:22:07,760
there as well if you have read it go and

2243
01:22:11,350 --> 01:22:09,600
read it again it's a fascinating read

2244
01:22:13,189 --> 01:22:11,360
especially in preparation for that new

2245
01:22:14,629 --> 01:22:13,199
book coming as well diana it's been

2246
01:22:16,550 --> 01:22:14,639
great talking to you and i look forward

2247
01:22:18,790 --> 01:22:16,560
to having you back on again in future

2248
01:22:20,870 --> 01:22:18,800
thanks so much it was really fun

2249
01:22:22,870 --> 01:22:20,880
that is all for this week's show thank

2250
01:22:24,870 --> 01:22:22,880
you very much for listening please

2251
01:22:27,590 --> 01:22:24,880
remember to leave the podcaster review

2252
01:22:29,830 --> 01:22:27,600
on your chosen platform you can like

2253
01:22:31,750 --> 01:22:29,840
retweet and subscribe that would all be

2254
01:22:33,910 --> 01:22:31,760
very much appreciated the shows are

2255
01:22:35,430 --> 01:22:33,920
being uploaded onto youtube as we speak

2256
01:22:37,990 --> 01:22:35,440
more and more you can sign up at

2257
01:22:40,709 --> 01:22:38,000
patreon.com forward slash that ufo

2258
01:22:42,870 --> 01:22:40,719
podcast access shows ad free as well

2259
01:22:45,750 --> 01:22:42,880
please get in touch on twitter facebook

2260
01:22:49,430 --> 01:22:45,760
instagram that ufo podcast of course on

2261
01:22:51,350 --> 01:22:49,440
twitter it's at ufo uap am and again

2262
01:22:54,130 --> 01:22:51,360
folks as always keep looking up you

2263
01:23:14,470 --> 01:22:54,140
never know what you might see

2264
01:23:14,480 --> 01:23:21,190
is

2265
01:23:21,200 --> 01:23:45,430
[Music]

2266
01:23:45,440 --> 01:23:55,430
i jump back nearly kiss

2267
01:23:58,229 --> 01:23:56,790
they thought this was noise they thought

2268
01:24:00,240 --> 01:23:58,239
it was a dream they thought it was my

2269
01:24:09,490 --> 01:24:00,250
toys

2270
01:24:09,500 --> 01:24:15,590
[Music]

2271
01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:20,730
and

2272
01:24:53,390 --> 01:24:29,350
[Music]

2273
01:24:53,400 --> 01:24:59,669
saucer food

2274
01:25:08,400 --> 01:25:01,590
it wasn't a tic tac and not quite a

2275
01:25:08,410 --> 01:25:22,229
[Music]

2276
01:25:31,510 --> 01:25:24,210
thanks

2277
01:25:33,800 --> 01:25:31,520
[Music]

2278
01:25:48,310 --> 01:25:33,810
so